Men, Sex and Porn - One Guy's Candid Opinion
Evin M. Daly, one of the guys behind the website the Butler Report, sent a link to a lengthy commentary by guest writer Maui Pete, explaining it all for us:
Men are visual when it comes to sex; it is part of the feedback loop. That’s why women appear pretty or sexy. It’s what attracts men to women....Ouch. This is just the tip of Maui Pete's iceberg - there's plenty more of the above if you're interested. It's candid and honest; but it's also the sort of thing to sink a relationship between two people passing each other like ships in the night.Many men have a need for additional stimulation. This is accomplished in various levels depending on a combination of factors including character, sex drive, sex life, stress, hormones – any number of things. Porn adds a visual stimulant that helps taper or increase the sex drive....
Women get confused about this. Men aren’t having sex with the models in the pornography, the stimulant is watching others having sex.
Some men find a trip to Hooters stimulating. Others frequent strip joints. Some up the ante with drugs or alcohol. Others employ the world’s oldest professional, prostitutes. Still others are compulsive cheaters....
If you want a demonstration of how primitive men's sex drives are add some beer to the mix. Watch as his social barriers diminish and his sex drive take over. Men will have sex with just about any female after a few drinks; hence the term ‘beer goggles’. Some men need alcohol to have sex as they need help in reducing inhibitions or they find their mate unattractive.
Is this a hard truth we need to hear, or TMI (too much information)? Or just the opinion of one man who - although he tries to - doesn't necessarily speak for the majority of men?
If this post was helpful to you:
Comments
Judging from what you cite in the article, I think the author totally fails to take into account social context and the laziness found in it. Plus, girls can like porn just as much as guys but the industry is not geared to a female audience. I think the differences between men and women are arbitrary and always blurred.
Additionally, using drugs and alcohol is not “upping the ante” its dumbing it down. Pressure felt around sex in social environments is intense and drugs and alcohol are way to dissolve barriers that should probably be there, especially since so many sex crimes occur while under the influence.
I think many factors of American culture, popular culture and history have left us with a steaming pile of stupid bull**** that most every weekend warrior sits down to make a meal out of at prime time. None of the things like Hooters, prostitution, pornography and Coors are inherently natural. They are manifestations of our bull**** lifestyle.
This issue requires greater depth of analysis in order to be considered honest.
it’s none of those things. what it is is a load of crap that feminists have heard men say 50 million times to defend their use of porn and their hatred of women.
It’s an interesting article – very honest actually (speaking as a man). Reacting to the previous comment – some feminists are a strange. We don’t hate women – we don’t enough to, maybe that’s why you would like us to? Maybe women are afraid of men? The piece I read is obviously a commentary and doesn’t address other issues like problems/addictions etc. Otherwide 2 thumbs up for effort. And honesty.
Men and women arn’t so different when it comes to sex. Many women enjoy visual stimulation,the only difference is that men over the years have been brought up to be more comfortable with it, as in many things when it comes to sex. This article just gives men the red light leaving them void of any responsibility for there sexual behaviour especially when married or in any form of committed relationship.It seems that some men are becoming hooked on internet porn even husband, fathers and grandfathers are at it and why because they can get instant gratification with little effort.If the writer of this actical believes that men jerking off to porn is the way man is going to help the human race reproduce he is sadly mistaken.And as for a womans sex drive dropping after entering a relationship, mine has always been very high and at 50 still is and I don’t believe I am an exception to the rule either.This article is actually pretty demeaning to men as it suggest that anything else a man does in life other then hunting out a female for sex is just fluff, all seems very narrow mined to me.I know men who are totally devoted to there partners and off spring and hold them above all else even sex something obviously the writer of this article would possibly find difficult to take on board. All these so called expert and there finding are often found to be unproven and in the end a pile of poop!.
My husband was addicted to porn & we both had a hard time w/intimacy because of his being so into porn. In order for him to have sex we would have to watch an adult film together. We had such a very unhealthy sex life. In addition to his addiction to porn, we were both into a adult swinging lifestyle on occasion. After years of participating with swinging, we found that lifestyle very dis-satisfying. We knew we had to change that life so we sought out church, new friends & accepted the Lord Jesus in our lives. I hope this guy who wrote the article reads this blog because our life changed from being very unhappy & empty to very happy together sexually & spiritually healed by God. I hope others read this as well & will give you hope. Infidelity & all the problems that come with the adult lifestyle are healed now after years of being in that lifestyle. After 3 years of our new life, we volunteer at our church, we are closer to our children, & are there for are grandchildren. We were on the verge of divorce after 15 years of marriage yet Jesus intervened. I hope someone reads this & finds hope. Take care all. Julie
Why do we care what men think? I tend to care about what’s right for me and what I need. If I do not want to deal, fight, argue, work on, whatever, I move on. I can be alone. Many women seem desperate and hate themselves and that is why many men act the way they do. I have had really good boyfriends and many proposals. I find being independent attracts the best men.
I think it is true…I am a women…but I need the visual sometimes of porn to get me “interested” in having sex. RedTube is the only site I have found that doesn’t cause computer crashes. I was planning on sharing this information with my b/f when he moves in..since he doesn’t have a computer at home.
I liked the article, I don’t think men use porn as an excuse. I think SOME might, but not all.
Wow, Meh-ry Magdelan you are bitter and it bleeds thru in your comments.
It also looks like you recently took a Philosophy course,…Good for you!
How do you know the “porn industry” is “geared towards men”??? What qualifications do you have(other than being bitter)to make that narrow minded assumption?
Are you a porn expert? Change your narrow minded and bitter ways before it ruins your life. Oh, and really THINK before you leave another comment here or anywhere.
The important thing here is that we are discussing these important relationship issues and striving towards understanding each other rather then pointing fingers, building up walls and casting out “all those evil,evil,evil(sarcasm) porn watching MEN”
DR. C.C.
ccc,
you’re an absolute fool.
I think it’s very normal for men of all ages to be interrested in anything visually stimulating.
Ok, accepting that men need visual stimuli to become sexually aroused, why can’t they look at their wives or girlfriends only for that?
i have horrible beer goggles
Here’s it nice and simple. Guys are easily aroused by random women they see every day, weather they like it or not, married or single. Semen builds up, and its painful. To relieve it they must ejaculate through masturbation, sex, or wet dreams. The sooner a guy finds relief the sooner he can get on with other things that are most likely more important to the rest of the world. It’s like a headache that comes everyday, guys are just reaching for the closest bottle of Tylenol so they can get on with life.
I have a tendency to believe no one will care about my feelings about this. Why? Because we are all, including myself, self-absorbed in our own little worlds. That is shown by some of the responses to this subject.
My wife is beautiful. She is in her early sixties now and someone just the other day said she looks in her 40’s and still has a body many young women would die for. She is my second wife, the first died in an auto accident, and my present wife and I have been together for 20 years. The reason for stating this is to show I am in a committed relationship with a beautiful woman I adore.
That doesn’t stop me from looking at internet porn. Why? Because she isn’t interested in sex near as much as I am. Just as Mike said about masturbation “The sooner a guy finds relief the sooner he can get on with other things that are most likely more important to the rest of the world.” Women and men are different about some things and the same about some things. That goes for women and women and men and men also. You can’t stereo type relationships. There are no two alike.
Today my wife and I had sex for the first time in a week or so. She had been busy with stuff I don’t care about and we didn’t have any sexual activity for a while. That happens regularly. She isn’t interested. To be fair, I’m not either. It takes too long and leaves me spaced for the rest of the day. We enjoy one another and have good sex. I am not stating this for any reason other than to say sexually she is satisfied, but she got off 5 times this morning and me once. Still, I needed to get off again tonight to get on with things more important. She wasn’t interested and I didn’t want to take the hour and a half to two hours to play or bother her. I just wanted to think about “things that are most likely more important to the rest of the world.” Porn helped me go there by getting sex off my mind.
I didn’t fantasize about being with the women in the porn. Nature helped things along by providing the natural stimulus of the enjoyment of the female form. What I enjoyed the most was fantasizing that women want to have sex. That is the main attraction to porn for men. I know several women as friends and they are not thinking about sex, just as my wife doesn’t. I do! I don’t want to go out and have sex with a horny woman. I am very happy with my wife. I just want to get on with things. Ejaculating clears my head of the thought of sex, as with most men, then on to other things.
Nice, Jim.
I’m most disturbed, and yet, unfortunately, not at all surprised, by some of the comments SOME of the female posters have left (kudos to those intelligent enough to understand men and women think differently).
I will say this, being a man that is probably more in touch with his ‘feelings’ than many men are, I think about and analyze things probably more than most other people, that is my experience.
Having said that, the problem with many women’s views is that they insist that their view is the ‘norm’ and that anything outside of that is ‘wrong’, instead of ‘different’. That’s a dangerous way to view things.
As evidenced by one of the above posters, I believe FAR too many women would agree with the unintelligent drivel about ‘men just using that as an excuse’. Sorry, lady, you’re not a man, don’t EVEN attempt to try to think you know how we feel. The equivilant for you to try to understand is when men say that PMS is just an excuse for women to have b*tchy behavior. Is that fair? No, of course not.
To answer your question, about why men would turn to porn is that the TRUTH is, MOST women do not look nearly as attractive as the women in porn. Some men have very attractive wives, and still may want porn just for the very nature some of the other men posters indicated. Most men need an outlet in that department. That’s just the way it is. Don’t try to change it, otherwise, you might need to look in the mirror and figure out what you should change about yourselves to make us happier…but I’m guessing you wouldn’t want to do that, huh? Why try that with men?
In today’s society, feminists work so hard to change the ’self-image’ of women that tells them they don’t need to be skinny, that many women today let themselves go. and then they just expect that men, who’s nature is based on physical beauty, should just accept it. Well, what do you expect? I’m not suggesting that women should be supermodel skinny. I personally think that’s crazy, and very unhealthy. but so is weighing 165 lbs at 5′5, not to mention unattractive.
Maybe it’s just human nature that men AND women have selfish desires of their mate. No one, and I mean, WOMEN too, has what is considered ‘unconditional love’ for another person, outside of their children. It’s all based on desires and needs. The moment that desire and need isn’t met consistently, that spouse is no longer as valuable to you. If you only think I’m some jerk, maybe you just aren’t willing to look at yourself in your truest form and are still living a fantasy world, or you are incapable of doing so.
When I was first married I was very threatened by my husband’s interest in porn. He didn’t try to hide it from me but rather tried to share honestly his experience. We tried a couple of times to watch an “adult” movie together but it honestly turned me off. I enjoy sex but don’t go into the fake ecstasies and 20-minute long orgasms that porn actresses do. It just doesn’t seem real to me, and in addition I like a little bit of romance and tenderness in the mix, something I think many women can relate to. A lot of porn movies are just too graphic and — how do I put it — too unfeeling for me. My husband, on the other hand, needs some of that rough and graphic kind of stimulation.
I didn’t and don’t insist that he stop looking a porn though. We’ve talked about it and I realize that he is perfectly capable of telling the difference between fantasy and reality, and doesn’t get them mixed up. I am still #1 in his life. He does like to feel that he is giving pleasure as well as getting it, and my showing some enthusiasm is very stimulating for him.
I also have to admit that I occasionally have sexual fantasies too, though probably not as often as he does. He says that he does not want to know about those fantasies, though–he gets a little jealous just like I do.
I don’t agree with Phil C. on a number of points, though. I am not a young woman anymore and although I was beautiful when I was I don’t feel I am as attractive now. That’s inevitable with time. But–here’s where I agree with the feminists–I refuse to spend my life in a pathetic quest to restore my youth. I will not get face lifts and boob lifts and plastic surgery and all the things you have to do in order to try to compete with younger women (including porn stars) and which usually don’t work anyway. I do not see that men’s attraction to physical beauty should absolutely dictate how I behave in life. If some of them don’t think I am completely and totally a worthy sex object (because of my age or other physical attributes) that’s just too bad.
I’m confident that my husband loves me, no matter whether he likes to look at beautiful young women in fantasy or not. His whole life he has always been attracted to older women and he hasn’t changed in that. We are happy together, and if he occasionally likes to look at a nice rear end or set of breasts on some porn site it doesn’t bother me. I am confident of his fidelity. Besides, he isn’t a powerful, alpha-male, high status multi-millionaire and he knows it, and doesn’t imagine he could sweep a supermodel off her feet if he should meet one. Living happily with reality is the best life.
Audrey,
I think you missed the point I was making, actually, I think you made up something that wasn’t there. Never once did I say a woman should get plastic surgery, boob jobs, etc…nor did I say a woman should let a man’s desire for physical beauty dictate how she lives her life.
What I am simply stating is that life isn’t too complicated. If you as a woman do not take care of yourself (mostly meaning weight by diet and excercise), then do not be surprised when your husband or significant other looks at porn for that type of stimulation. Instead, the problem I have with feminists is that they insist that men must change how we view women.
Why can’t women just ACCEPT it as how we are and move on? If you don’t care about a guy’s attention, affection, don’t worry about it. If you do, then maybe you ought to take better care of yourself, instead of trying to complain about what men think or act like.
I have a friend, a nice guy, a smart guy, decent looking guy, though no Brad Pitt. He’s been without a job for a little while. Surprisingly enough, he also happens to be without a girlfriend for a while.
Now, when my wife starts talking to her friends about ’setting them up’, no matter how good a guy she feels he is, she simply will not mention him as a possiblity. Why? Women want security. Women DON’T want a guy who is jobless for financial and/or ‘laziness’ reasons.
So, essentially, that means that women have criteria for guys, too, and are not willing to even consider a guy who doesn’t meet their criteria.
And I don’t see a male activist group coming to the forefront and saying that women need to change how they view men. No, the reality is, if my buddy wants a woman, he needs to change what he’s doing. That’s not any different than what I’m saying about women and how they look. And sorry, weight and body appearance is far more controllable than women (our society in general) like to admit.
Now that I’ve clarified that point, I’m interested in the other points you don’t agree with. I’m not trying to get into a battle, but I enjoy discussing these things, if you so wish.
PhilC, your previous comments make very clear that you are a weightist. And while I agree that men (and women) are always going to be attracted to attractive people, your definition of what is attractive is sadly limited, and feminists who criticize the ways in which porn changes how men view women have some very good points.
First of all, women in porn films belong to a very small subset of people in terms of how they look–and that visual effect is augmented by both pre- and post-production techniques such as airbrushing, fake tanning and other artifical methods which give these women completely unattainable specs. Second, when our boys and men see these images, which are seeping into the mainstream with disturbing pervasiveness, they start to expect women to look like that every day, and to think less of women who can’t approach that unrealistic ideal. Similarly, the sexual acts and attitudes toward women that are portrayed in pornography are often blatantly demeaning to women, which would not be such a problem if there was an equally powerful media force that promoted a more positive view of women and their sexuality.
I don’t begrudge anyone the images or erotica that help them get turned on or stay satisfied. I have myself watched the odd adult film, etc. and so cannot honestly criticize them without being a hypocrite. However, if we ignore the messages they contain, or pretend they don’t contain them, or that they don’t have the power to affect public attitudes, we create a space for those attitudes to take hold of us while we aren’t looking and shrug off the responsibility of cultivating more tolerant, inclusive views.
As for women taking care of themselves? It seems you’re saying that women who don’t fit into a certain demographic (the one that appeals to you) aren’t worthy to be considered sexy or loveable and that women should devote much of their precious time and energy to conforming to those very narrow standards. Perhaps we have better things to do with our time, like pursuing advanced academic degrees, building careers, developing our creative talents, or simply being present in the world. Or perhaps we simply refuse to spend a lifetime denying ourselves the sensual enjoyment of good food, or spending grueling hours on a treadmill rather than reading a good book. What good is model-beauty if the personality beneath is dead-boring and weight obsessed? I notice, when looking at the prime time sitcoms on American television, that the husbands tend to be fat, bumbling buffoons with lovely, thin, intelligent and successful wives. Are these the men we women are supposed to be grooming ourselves for? Some prizes. Women do have standards as well, sometimes that includes a job, but those standards aren’t the same for all or even most women, and it’s not about the security, even when the job is a factor. I personally wish to date men with jobs because that’s an indicator of many other factors: their self-sufficience, their interest in something outside themself–and because men so often define themselves, at least partially, by what they do, their self-worth is often wrapped up in their job and suffers when they are unemployed.
I don’t pretend to speak for men and I don’t even presume to speak for all women, but perfect bodies are not the only attributes which attract men to women and vice versa. I’m sorry for you that your criteria for what is attractive in a woman are so limited–you’re missing out on a whole spectrum of enjoyment. Luckily for the rest of the world, standards of beauty aren’t always so homogenous and narrow.
As for your final thoughts on how controllable weight is for other people–well, PhilC, if it WERE that easy, why wouldn’t more people be successful? Your singularly unsympathetic comments on weight and its management indicate are somewhat ignorant and totally intolerant. It is a fact that in the United States it costs more to eat healthy, as cheaper foods are usually the over-processed empty calorie fare that contributes to weight gain. Similarly, access to a gym, a sports facility, the free time to spend working out, also come with implications of affordability. Aside from the class issues this raises, are other scientific data, including the two different species of bacteria that live in human guts, one found primarily in thin folks, the other in fat, which produce a negative feedback loop that locks the person into a self-perpetuating cycle of digestion that helps ensure that the thin stay thin and the fat stay fat.
Other people on this forum seem to be trying to increase understanding among men and women, and affecting change for the better. It is arrogant to ask women to just accept that men are the way they are and to discourage them from asking for what they want and trying to reach a compromise. Should we just have accepted that men got to vote and we didn’t? Should we just accept that men get paid more than we for exactly the same work? I argue that we should not, and that we should not settle for a society that asks us to define ourselves and our worth as people and partners based solely on how we look.
Aeonflux,
Maybe instead of assuming what I’m saying (indicating I’m a ‘weightist’, even though you know nothing about me?, pretty immature, I promise), maybe you need to let some of your feminist ideals go and take it for what I said, and have always said.
#1) I do NOT under any circumstance indicate that women NEED to work on trying to be beautiful for men. My only point is, if you determine that a relationship that includes a good man is part of what you wish for in life, don’t be surprised if you aren’t noticed, or aren’t approached as often as a more physically attractive woman, if YOU DECIDE NOT TO TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF. Or, if you wish your situation to change, you can indeed change it, more times than not. I’m not going to go into heredity, big bone, etc…problems for women. If those things are the cause of being overweight, there might not be much you can do. I’m not ‘weightist’. I’m what most people outside of the jealous, bitter feminist society would call ‘realist’.
#2) I never advocated looking like porn women, and I’m CERTAINLY not indicating the ‘airbrush’ effects of models is what men find so appealing. Simply put, a 220 lb woman is not going to look like a 115 lb supermodel with some airbrushing. I’m not advocating the ‘Barbie’ look, or unrealistic expectations on women. However, it is an undeniable fact of life, there simply is NO WAY AROUND IT, men are attracted to physical beauty. And there are so many variations of what that includes, however, MOST men (and I will never say I speak for all men) have similar beliefs.
Here’s the problem I have, and I thank you for proving my point. You are, as I indicated above, part of the problem in society. I don’t give a damn if what I desire is big breasts, small waistes and tone butts. Who cares? I don’t condemn you for your ’shallow’ views. After all, you have indicated that you insist on a man with a job (big surprise). That in fact, is just as shallow as what you perceive my desires for a woman to be. The difference is, I don’t have a support group trying to change what you want of a partner. To me, that’s your choice.
So I exclude based on weight, you exclude based on employment. Who’s more shallow?
See, in your narrow mind, I’m more shallow, only because you are unwilling to see your own views as merely your own, and not ‘righteous’. I’m intelligent enough to see my views as ‘my views’, and don’t try to indicate that other views need to match my own.
And here’s the other problem. You have no idea of what my ‘other’ criteria are for a woman. You never cared to ask, you only assumed. So, in your mind, I only care about boobs, butts and that’s it. However, I look at that as only an initial filter. Why not? If I’m not attracted to someone, why continue?
You can come across a perfectly attractive man who has intelligence, personality, confidence, a great attitude, sense of humor but was bit by a tough economy in which he can’t find a job. Your filter has already sent him packing, because of how you think he’s going to be. Pretty shallow. You may never even take the time to find out about his other qualities.
At least (most of) the women that I may overlook have control over how they appear. It’s absolutely true most, man or woman, can stay HEALTHY (or did you forget about the health problems of overweight people)and in some sort of shape by working out and eating properly. I’m not saying it’s easy. Boy, do I enjoy a good pizza. However, it’s still ultimately up to us to look how we want, at least our bodies.
I don’t see the NFL calling me and giving me a chance to play for them. I never worked hard enough to become a great player. That was my choice, I can’t complain about it afterward…see, that’s the truth of how men generally view things and how women generally view things. Men make choices on how to live their life, and then more times than not, they accept the consequences. Women make choices (not being careful what they eat, how they work out), and they end up blaming others (men’s views of women) on why they suddenly can’t find a man who’s attracted to them. Doesn’t make any sense.
And, don’t try to overcomplicate things, or try to change what women need. Women need security. It doesn’t have to be financial security, it can be emotional, physical, whatever. How is it that a common answer to the question ‘why do you love him’ is ‘he makes me feel good’. That’s security, no matter how you wish to view it.
See, I think the problem is, as I stated originally, the feminist viewpoint is that THEIR WAY IS THE RIGHT WAY. Sorry, that’s so screwed up, and does NOTHING for society. Now, I absolutely agree that some of the original feminist ideals were very necessary. (But, you’ll skip right past this part in your rebuttal, I’m sure of it). I’ve never advocated that women not being able to vote was the right way to go. Absolutely not. However, in today’s age of TRYING to get women to feel equal, feminists are actually going the opposite way. They’re trying to blame men, and trying to change how men view things. This is absolutely the wrong way to go about it. Putting others down so you feel good about yourself is not the answer.
Sorry for a reality check, women DO NOT HAVE THE ANSWERS. They may have the answers for what they think, but they cannot judge men for thinking differently, which is all I ever stated to begin with.
Ultimately, the whole point of this is…men want beauty. Women want whatever they want. If I am a man who wants a woman, I will fail to land a woman if I don’t provide her what she wants and desires. If I am a woman who wants a man, I will fail to land a man if I don’t provide him what he wants and desires.
It’s no more complicated than that. The biggest problem is, it’s socially acceptable for women to have their criteria, but not for men to have their criteria without it coming under fire by feminist groups.
There’s no way an intelligent, self-thinking human being who isn’t bitter can look at that and say that’s fair or right.
How is it that you can?
Okay, so Am I to understand that infedelity, porn addiction, and just being plain lazy and unwilling to do the work that can satisfy both parties is okay, because they are men and that is the way God made them??? So here is what I say, I have been a faithfull wife of three years, and my husband isn’t as intrested in sex as I am, i have a crazy sex drive and it just keeps growing, since it is okay for men to be unfaithfull, and addicted to porn, why should I worry when a guy expresses intrest in me and I welcome it?! I dont condone infidelity, but if someone is not giving me the sexual stimulation that I am looking for, I am going to find it else where right?? That is what men do…If my husband can do it, so can I, and if he’s not happy with the outcome then he has only himself to blame. I have asked and spoke about it, I have been understanding, watched porn with him and still he looked elsewhere.. so here is what I am saying, classes on marriages, psycological bulls***, and everything else that “DRs” want to meddle in, is crap, crap, crap, I am not a fool, if you want to play, let’s play, I will end up on top ( figurativily speaking )
Tough luck… what happens when you’re NATURALLY ugly, like me? I’m not a feminist. I’m not overweight. I’m just ugly. I keep my weight low, I brush my teeth, comb my hair, even wear some make up, but my face is unattractive. Then what? What, eh? at least an unemployed man can eventually get a job, and I, at least wouldn’t really mind because I HATE depending on others so as long as I have a job, then it’s all good.
But apparently you have to be PORN STAR beautiful to find a guy. What if you aren’t?
Mia,
You maybe could try calming down a bit. You seem a bit confused. Looking at porn is not cheating. If you wish to look at it like that, that’s your problem. However, you also have helped prove my point in your post. Your first initial reaction is to ASSUME that looking at porn = laziness, and an unwillingness to work to make both parties happy. And of course, YOU ARE ONLY BLAMING YOUR HUSBAND. Having as much interaction with women as I’ve had (I’m not bragging on sexuality, I mean discussions), I can guess you haven’t looked in the mirror (figuratively) and asked what if there’s anything you can do for him. I’m not saying you need to look down on yourself and start questioning if you’re a good wife, but maybe just tweaking something here or there could do wonders. In other words, maybe you should try to have sex with him, on HIS terms. For him, not for you. See if that helps, instead of automatically blaming him, calling him lazy, etc…
And, maybe his lack of interest in sex is due to being overweight. I’m not judging you, I’m not saying you are overweight. However, if you are, isn’t it better to lose some weight than to lose your marriage? This is not putting men above women. It’s putting your husband’s needs ahead of your own. Which all wives should do. Just as all husbands should put their wives ahead of themselves. I mean, if you truly love the person you’ve married, is it better to be TOO PROUD to change your weight, just for the sake of making some stupid feminist group happy, or to lose your weight to make the person you’ve committed your life to, happy?
I think the answer’s obvious. And if it’s not, that’s a REALLY sad state of how women view things.
Sadlyugly,
Again, as I’ve stated in all of my posts, I have never indicated you need to look like a pornstar to find a guy, maybe you should read what’s written instead of emotionally respond to what you think I’ve said. I have said all along that men find many different forms of women attractive. It just so happens that ALMOST ALL men find women in porn attractive, because they are in shape, they do have some similar features that men find pretty. Plus, they’re having sex, and willing to show everything, what guy wouldn’t want to see that?
Anyway, to your question. Attractiveness when it comes to sex, is based on your body. If you happen to meet a guy and can attract him by your personality you should have no problems. Men filter based on attractiveness, but they take the body into account. That might be the most important part, since sex is ultimately the goal for men. If you come across as having a less than stellar personality, the less than attractive face will definitely come into play. But if you appear to be a really fun chick, guys will notice less and you can then attract based on your personality and your body. As I’ve said all along, the beauty is a filter, an initial filter, but not the ONLY thing guys look at.
That overgeneralization is a product of feministic views. Once a guy says he doesn’t think a girl’s pretty enough, it’s automatically assumed he just cares about beauty and nothing else.
Anyway, back on track. The sad truth of the matter is, though, that you MAY have a hard time finding a good guy that you also find attractive. I say it’s not impossible, but it could be hard. But before you start hating men due to this, think about the guy in your situation, but he’s there due to lack of confidence. For most women, jobs are a must, and you’re right, a job situation CAN change. But a good guy who, through no fault of his own, might have low self-esteem. Now, he can’t find a woman to have any interest in him, no matter how interesting he is, or how well he’ll treat you. Why? Women look for guys who stick out, and a shy guy without a lot of bravado certainly doesn’t stick out. How is he to gain confidence?
But again, I don’t see groups coming to the forefront and demanding that women change their criteria for what they find attractive. For those guys, they’re SOL, and there’s not much they can do about it. Most women don’t feel bad, or care enough to change their criteria.
My point is, women need to be more accepting of men, as they are. Once you do this, you’ll find you won’t be so frustrated with life, you’ll have better relationships with your spouse, and we won’t have all of these fing discussions taking up so much of our time. It’s all of the trying to change how men view things that is causing a lot of problems. Men don’t want or need to change how they view things. They might be willing to, if they knew women were going to change to accomodate them. However, we all know you aren’t willing to do that. So, we’re not going to change, it’s that simple. And we shouldn’t, no matter how much you think we should. You’re wrong if you do.
Answer me this, women posters who refuse to acknowledge the truth:
In all of your quests to change men, in all of your quests to insist that their way is somehow wrong, disgusting, etc…tell me what women have done in the past 50 years to change for OUR benefit?
I’ll wait. Can’t think of anything. Has it occured to any of you feminists out there, that there has been TREMENDOUS change of attitude toward women, from men over the past 30 40 years? God, I can’t even get any of you who read my posts to admit you might be a bit narrow-minded when it comes to differences of men and women.
Now think of this, and it will prove my point, if you are willing to allow it to: In today’s society, there are questions of whether a woman should accept her man’s name in marriage. It’s an old tradition, but it’s based on symbolism. I say she should, it’s her symbol of love for her husband. But I also say if it’s a problem for her, because of her feminist views, then she has every right to say she doesn’t want to take the name.
However, that also means she should voluntarily tell her husband to be that she doesn’t want an engagement ring. After all, the engagement ring is nothing more than a symbol of his love to his wife. If she expects that he respect her and love her despite her standing up against tradition, then she should show him that she loves him despite the fact that he also stands up against tradition.
Oddly enough, I know a few women who have kept their names. Strange, though, I remember seeing some awful gawdy diamonds on those fingers…hmmmm…that’s hypocrisy at best, and I’m being very nice.
Unfortunately, I know the response to this. Most women will tell me I’m crazy, it’s not the same. That’s only because you don’t want it to be the same. But it is. Problem is, most of you women who want to change men’s views all the time aren’t willing to look at your own views, look at the things men do for you that you take for granted, and make a true COMPROMISE, by giving those things up.
You still yearn and expect chivalry, even though you no longer earn it. Chivalry was given as a gift to you because of what you were giving to men, in terms of attitude. You ripped that away, and yet you still seem to think you have a birth-rite for men to still be chivalrous to you. Men have already changed most of the wrongs that were present years ago. It’s time you either accept it and move on or if you wish continued change for your benefit, decide what you’re going to change of yourselves for our benefit (sorry to bruise your sensitive egos, but you don’t exactly do everything right to make us happy ya know)
Ummm, Phil C…you’re really coming across as a sad, bitter man who feels threatened by women who want to exist for more than a man’s sexual satisfaction.
Paragraphs of text isn’t going to change this perception – you may sound logical and well-phrased, but at the end of the day you still have issues…
You come across as sexist, believing that women are the property of a man, and that men have the right to behave with absolutely no respect and still get what they want.
That’s a very childish view of the world. I suggest you grow up and get a life.
that’s funny Becs.
Actually, anyone with a brain can read and re-read my text and see I have never indicated once that a woman is there strictly for a man’s sexual desires, or are his property.
You, again, by your emotional response of what you think I mean (vs. what I actually say), help prove my point on women. That point is, that their views are very narrow-minded and very dangerous. They believe that any view outside of their own is wrong and needs to change to meet their own point. Hitler thought that, too. So did Joseph Stalin. It’s a dangerous way of thinking.
Maybe you should learn to read or better yet, learn to NOT read into something that’s not there. If you can point to me where I make such statements, please do.
I’ll admit my last post was born of frustration, the others were not. No doubt. However, for you, Becs, to judge me completely and utterly based on a post that says NOTHING of what you think it says, shows a lot more of your own childish and narrow-minded thinking than it does of me.
Ladies,
Though long-winded I am (can you REALLY have a simple 10 word discussion on men and women?), please take this into consideration before the venom comes spewing out even more than it already has:
I am all for change. I do not, cannot, and will not advocate men changing for women without women changing for men. And that’s the point. So, if you feel men need to change what they want and desire of a mate, be prepared to change what you want and desire of a mate. If you are unwilling to do so, how can you expect that of someone else?
It’s no more complicated than that, regardless if it hurts your feelings or not, or it’s something you don’t understand.
Back to my name-change / engagement ring argument. The whole point of the argument is that women ask men to change long-time standing traditions, and then insist so by saying ‘if you love and respect ME, you will do it.’ Ok. I’ve said all along that’s perfectly fine. Isn’t that respectful of women? Of course it is. Of course, you all skip over that when commenting, but what should I expect?
If I was asked that by my wife, I would have had no problems doing so…but only IF she could accept that I don’t feel it’s necessary to show my love by spending my money on a diamond. After all, that is nothing more than a symbol of a long-standing tradition. How can a marriage be successful if only ONE partner is making sacrifices for the sake of the other, but it is not reciprocated(sp?)
In my example, the wife would be showing that she doesn’t care about the ring, and that her love isn’t tied to some shiny thing that she can show off to her friends.
Unfortunately, many women view the ring and the ceremony as the single most important piece of marriage. If that isn’t screwed up, what is? If a woman truly loves a man, she could love him without the ring, without the ceremony, without the dream house (or some form of), and yes, even without the baby.
But I know 98% of the women in this country would never do that for the sake of her husband…which leads to the point I was making to begin with:
If you ‘love’ us for what we provide for you, no matter what it is, then shouldn’t we ‘love’ you for what you provide us, no matter what it is? The answer is ‘yes’.
It’s not unconditional love after all. It’s ‘love’ for a purpose. Isn’t that the very thing you complain about men doing?
How is this so hard to understand? I’m not looking to knock women. I’ve already indicated I am fully for changing men’s mindset and behavior, as long as it’s reciprocated. That’s not shallow at all. As a matter of fact, that’s pretty enlightened. Unfortunately, I’ve only seen posts that aren’t so enlightened. They’re selfish. They want only change that will benefit themselves.
It reminds me of the girl that uses the Bible to protect herself and suggest to her boyfriend that she’s saving sex for marriage because that’s what God wants. That’s fine, she has every right to do so.
However, that same girl doesn’t acknowledge the Bible also says women should be submissive to men. Now, I’m not going to get into the argument about bible being right or wrong, I’m using it to show that if you’re going to take a piece of the bible for your benefit, you better be prepared to take the bible for ALL of it, even when it doesn’t benefit you. Otherwise, you’d be a big hypocrite.
Make the connection to the rest of my post. It’s the same thing.
Why does a woman have to change for a man? Or at least change first… you’re saying that before we ask men to change, we must change first. What gives men the privilege of waiting to change?! I mean I’m not a feminist, but I guess that even if it’s harder, change has to come from both parties at the same time. It’s like if you had a girlfriend and you went bungee jumping and told her to go first, to see if she falls and dies, and if she does then you don’t jump. Gives a WHOLE new meaning to “ladies first”.
Look, I get it, men hate feminists. But that doesn’t mean all women are the same. Plus, feminism isn’t even about relationships and all that. From what I know it goes well beyond that. And maybe feminists haven’t done anything for the benefit of men, but hey, THEY HAVE HELPED US A FREAKING LOT! Now we get to vote, now we get to earn a degree, now we get to be CEOs, now we earn almost as much as men.
I admit I haven’t read your whole posts, and I admit the paragraph above is a bit off topic. It was just meant to state that feminism has almost nothing to do with relationships.
Now, you didn’t imply that we have to be porn star attractive, but from what you stated, it can be concluded that it is the preferred “body type” for men. I may not be fat, but my body isn’t spectacular either. I don’t have huge boobs. And guys don’t look at me, despite my efforts for at least looking clean and decent. It’s genes, what can I do? Physically, I will never be as “beautiful” as a porn star. Because you say that “you don’t need to look like them to be considered attractive”, but, that implies that their attractiveness is superior than that of normal women. Thus, why some of us feel bad. In my case I can say, that if pressure is put on us to be beautiful, and if attractiveness is higly valued and desired in women, then I won’t feel good about myself if I don’t feel that what I’m doing is right. And I’m not doing it right, because the ideal is very far from who I am and what I look like. (Hope this makes sense, English isn’t my first language).
And hey, allow me to say, but men are way less forgiving of physical flaws. Or maybe it’s me. I’m not that shallow form what I’ve gathered.
I’ve been told I have awful taste in men (even by other guys, go figure), because, they say, I always go for the ugly, low profile ones. But I don’t care. I hate guys with huge egos and a lot of bravado. Most girls don’t like these guys, they are usually players anyway. Most like a decent looking, caring guy. Someone who’s there. Not prince charming. Just someone who listens and cuddles you every once in a while. We’re not asking you to stop watching the game (hell, I like watching the game!), drinking beer (ditto) or hanging out with your guys (we need space too!!!!). You don’t have to look like a male model (they look gay anyway, practically hairless). You don’t have to have “bravado” and tons of money. That’s a stereotype that men’s magazines sell.
Or maybe I’m the weird woman out of all women in the world? I just want someone I can share my interests with (music, art, literature, sports, you get they type). You know what I do when I have some extra cash? I either buy something for my guitar, or save it. I never spend small fortunes on shoes, in fact I hate even window shopping, because IT’S BORING!
” But a good guy who, through no fault of his own, might have low self-esteem. Now, he can’t find a woman to have any interest in him, no matter how interesting he is, or how well he’ll treat you. Why? Women look for guys who stick out, and a shy guy without a lot of bravado certainly doesn’t stick out. How is he to gain confidence?
But again, I don’t see groups coming to the forefront and demanding that women change their criteria for what they find attractive. For those guys, they’re SOL, and there’s not much they can do about it. Most women don’t feel bad, or care enough to change their criteria. ”
Anyway, a guy doesn’t need to have heaps of confidence. Plus, the same could be said about a girl with no confidence, right? But then, of course, she’d have to change if she wanted someone to take notice of her. Also, men don’t change their criteria either, so why should we? You are the typical guy who blames everything into women. Sure, we’re to blame for some stuff, but so are you. You’re the typical guy who victimizes men. Yet I bet if a woman came along and told you all of this but had a “great rack” you’d listen and be polite, only to see if you could “bang” her later.
I am ugly. I can’t change it. Men don’t notice me because they’re shallow. I deserve being wanted and loved as much as any other woman. And I shouldn’t have to change first so a guy would accept me. Why should I change first? I don’t get it. Please, why women first, explain that.
Oh, and by the way, maybe American women are different, but everything that you’re saying reads like a collection of sad stereotypes of how women have been portrayed over and over, and while yes, there are many “bridezillas” and such around, most women are level-headed enough to think well beyond that! We have BRAINS, we THINK, we can be as DEEP as guys can be…
Sadugly,
I appreciate you taking the time to actually engage in a conversation, something these other women posters aren’t willing to do, mostly because they’re afraid of being proven wrong.
First of all, I never said women should change first, I said women should change also.
Second, women SHOULD change first. It’s not actually first, though. See, like most women you are completely taking for granted the fact that men HAVE CHANGED, quite dramatically over the years. I find it HILARIOUS
As far as feminists go, as I have stated in another post, I have no problems with the original idea of feminism. It was necessary. However, it has gone way out of hand. I don’t expect feminists to try to do anything for men. However, they use the idea of ‘equality’ as their reason for change. What happens when things ARE equal, and you still try to change more? That’s more like ‘control’, not ‘equality’. And that’s the problem I have. As I’ve stated before, men have changed their views a ton over the past 40 – 50 years. No matter how bitter or angry you may be at men, you can’t say the same of women. You have a society of men who have accepted women like the feminists wanted, but you still have women who expect chivalry. That doesn’t make sense. Chivalry was born because of how things WERE. The old roles, the old way of thinking. It was a gift to women, because women gave us gifts with their submissive behavior. However, that submissive behavior is gone. Chivalry, by the same reasoning SHOULD be gone. If we’re equal, there should be no putting women above men in ANYTHING. They don’t deserve that type of special treatment. See, part of the problem is, women aren’t willing to let go of some of those nice things that they enjoyed about how men acted. Now, we’re all the same. We’re robots like feminists wanted. Fine. Don’t complain about it. Accept it.
Forget that last post. I was writing down ideas and was going to make it more coherent as I went along, but accidentally posted it before it was done.
Anyway, to continue what I was saying and try to clarify, I find it HILARIOUS and yet sad at the same time, that women complain so much about men’s attitudes, yet the majority of men GAVE you that freedom, GAVE you that right to vote, changed their views. Before you get all crazy on me about that, think about this. If there were NO MEN who agreed with what the feminists were trying to do, considering men had all the power, do you really think these changes would have occured? The answer is OF COURSE NOT!! Men, the same men you complain and b@tch about, were willing to look at how things were being done, and adapted to what was more appropriate. I’m not discounting the efforts of women to raise the awareness of men, but the absolute truth is, none of it would have been accomplished without men. And yet, feminists still only continue to cry and complain about men.
Why don’t you look in the mirror and ask, ok, since men have changed their views over the past 40 years, why don’t we be ‘man’ enough to change some of our views? It hasn’t happened. Women in this country still expect chivalry. There’s no reason for it. As I stated before, chivalry was a gift. Your grandmothers deserved chivalry. You and this generation do not. Chivalry isn’t a birth rite that women have. Chivalry was GIVEN to you. As women, you can start with that.
Onto your next topic. You, I’m afraid, ARE just as shallow as men. Only, you don’t think you are, because you can’t make the connection (or at least you haven’t so far) that your way isn’t necessarily the right way. It works for you, but then other people’s way works for them. Who are you to judge? Your view is no more ‘loving and caring’ than my view.
You say you don’t judge a guy based on his appearance. Fine. That’s your criteria. But you do judge him based on something else. In either way, ANYTIME ANYONE filters out a person due to something that person does or does not provide for them, it’s shallow. Maybe for you, you’re looking for a sensitive guy. Or a funny guy. A confident guy. An intelligent guy. Ok. Good for you. That’s your choice. But that’s shallow. There’s plenty of GOOD guys who aren’t sensitive or who aren’t funny that you’re excluding. But that’s your choice.
Sensitivity or humor or confidence or intelligence aren’t the only criteria for what makes a good person. See, deep down, there are REASONS why some men aren’t sensitive or humorous or even intelligent. Some people are born with more intelligence than others. Is that the fault of the lesser intelligent person? Is it their fault they have no confidence?
However, you don’t care about those reasons, you only know that the guy you are currently looking at doesn’t meet those criteria, so you aren’t going to be interested. How is it any different when men do the same about women? Again, who the hell are you to judge and call someone else shallow? That sounds pretty self-righteous of you to suggest you aren’t shallow, yet others are.
And, sorry, maybe you need to admit that women do NOT want what you say they want…just a nice guy who treats them well, blah, blah, blah. Oh, that all sounds good, and it makes you all feel better about yourselves. Hey, men want that too. But, just like men, those are your SECONDARY traits you are looking for. Those things you look for, are only when the first criteria is met, your initial filter. As I stated before, you never even get to that secondary trait if the first criteria isn’t met. For men, it’s physical attractiveness, for women it’s confidence or money or looks, usually.
I’ll give you an example, and please bear with me, there is a point to make. I listened to Howard Stern (oh, god, yes, that terrible anti-christ most of you women think he is) and he had a couple actresses on. Of course, they were beautiful and successful. They were talking about David Spade. Apparantly, the guy was one of the biggest Don Juan studs in Hollywood. None of them, even women who he had broken up with had anything negative to say about him. Stern asked the actresses about what makes him so attractive to all the women. They all said his sense of humor.
Ok. Now, if you believe that is their ONLY criteria, then you’re naive or completely dumb. See, a sense of humor is present in MANY men, most of who are not rich and famous, maybe even some who are not that confident. I promise those same beautiful actresses would not be caught dead with any of those other men who have a wonderful sense of humor, because their initial filter of money, fame, confidence, whatever, would have never allowed them to find out whether he’s funny or not. Yet these actresses believed that that was their only criteria. Why? Maybe the first filter is so sub-conscious that it goes undetected, I don’t know. Or maybe they don’t want to admit the other criteria because it ’sounds bad’ (that’s more believable). It ’sounds shallow’ so they don’t list it. In other words, what you said about MOST WOMEN wanting in a man is simply not true. That is what they wish their man to be, but only when the first initial criteria is met. Understand? If you look at it truthfully, you will come to the same conclusion, and maybe, just maybe, you’ll realize what I’ve been saying all along. Women are just as shallow as men, except their shallowness is different. After all, I have NEVER (as most men have not) filtered a woman strictly based on whether she has a job, or whether she comes across as really confident. Sure, those are nice things to add, but I’m not shallow enough to restrict my choice of a mate to only those women. Does that make me less shallow than you?
SadlyUgly,
One more quick point on your post (yeah, I know, quick point and PhilC does not compute:)
You indicated that there is pressure on women to be beautiful because that’s men’s criteria. I agree there is. But there’s also pressure on men to be successful or confident, or sensitive, or whatever it is that women want. Those men who don’t meet the criteria of women are in the same boat as you are. They are left wondering about themselves (and if it’s confidence that they lack, how can you gain confidence, as you indicated, when you can’t feel good about yourself?). This is one area I do agree with feminists. You don’t need a man to feel good about yourself. Just as men don’t need a woman to feel good about themselves.
Don’t forget, even though most of the women posters aren’t willing to admit this because they have targeted me as their enemy, I’ve never said women should live for men. I’ve never said men should live for women. I’ve never said women’s life should be to please men. I’ve simply said that if you want to be in a relationship, there are certain things BOTH sides need to realize and accept of the other. If a relationship isn’t in your cards for whatever reason, don’t sweat it. While there’s plenty of good in a good relationship, there’s also plenty of agony, for both men and women, due to these differences. It’s during those times I, along with other men and I’m sure women, too, wish we were single.
Ok, I’m done with this discussion. I’m only writing to say I acknowledge you wrote back, and only so you don’t think that I didn’t respond just because I’m a coward and have nothing else to say about your opinions.
I do have my opinions, but I’m done with the discussion. Since you seem like the type that likes to argue and prove a point, and always wants to have the last word, then I’ll give you that privilege. You have the last word.
Anyway, a friendly advice: if you dislike feminists so much, then don’t go to their websites or associate yourself with them. Just like women who don’t like porn should stay away from it and from the people that enjoy it, then save yourself some grief and do the same with feminists. Plenty of non-feminists or feminist-haters out there!
I do like to prove a point. I like to have discussions. I like to have points proven to me. Usually the discussions are far more ‘in your face’ than just the weather, so they may end up in arguments. Arguments don’t phase me.
As I have stated before, I don’t hate feminists. They were very necessary, originally. The mistake I made was that I thought feminists were open-minded to something different. Something that would help the sexes. Maybe even ease a burden on both of them, so as to improve relations. I have learned something. I was wrong about my mis-guided faith in women.
So what if men enjoy watching pornography its quite healthy for any male to enjoy any visual stimulation , its not unrare these days for women to actually get down and enjoy watching the films as well,as long as these men can keep it to fantasy and not think of it as reality it can be kept as a normal healthy pastime.
I understand guys need visual stimulation…but I can’t seem to get past that my man jerks off to other women. I feel like he wants to be with them, thus gets off by seeing them fck some guy who they believe is them??? Clearly, I want sex more than my boyfriend. So if and when he gets horny during the day, why can’t he wait for me to get home and have sex with me??? I don’t have to be in the mood if I know he wants to have sex. So there is no question as to when I’m ready, because I’m always ready. I feel like I am waiting on him to get horny, but if he already jerked off while I’m at work…when will we ever have sex!? anyone?
Not Satisfied,
I do not know your boyfriend, so I will do the best I can to give you my thoughts, if you wish to hear them.
Because men are stimulated visually, they get excited quickly, instantaneously. That also means they usually want relief quickly, instantaenously. Unlike many women, they do not want the wait, they do not want the tease, the longing, etc…as one of the male posters said, they want release so they can move on with the rest of their day.
Partially because men are problem solving oriented. If you’ve ever had a day where you wanted to vent to your boyfriend you’ll know what I mean. Chances are, you want to vent just to vent, and he wants to help solve your problem. He will listen, but then try to offer a solution, maybe at the point to add to your frustration, but it’s well-intentioned. The point I’m trying to make is that men see a ‘problem’ and they want to ’solve’ it. Well, it’s the same for sexual experiences. We get horny, we want to take care of it now…solving our ‘problem’.
One thing I would suggest is to set aside some time when you’re both home together and set up an erotic type experience with him. Do whatever it is you know that turns him on, and then continue to ‘tease’ him for a while. Then, whatever it is that he likes best, finish things off that way.
You can talk to him about it first and find out what type of ‘fantasy’ he would like you to do. It’s important that for this time, you are doing something for him, not the other way around. I know it sounds selfish, but if you want him to learn the fun or excitement of waiting and anticipating (so it will work for you later on), then you’re going to have to make the experience as erotic physically and mentally for him as possible. Men are not going to want to wait unless there’s an incredibly erotic experience awaiting them.
Obviously, I can’t answer the how-to or specifics of this experience, that will have to be up to you two. But if he notices that you are giving of yourself to him in the way he wants (without feeling like you’re ‘judging’ him), and he finds it incredibly erotic, both physically and mentally, then he will remember that when he’s at home and starts to get horny. He’ll remember that experience and want to do it again. He’ll wait for you to get home from work. And of course, you can help guarantee this from him by leaving hints before you go to work that this is in store for him when you get home. Trust me, he won’t be able NOT to think about it all day long, and when you get home, he will probably ‘attack’ you right when you walk in the door!!!!
Basically, what you want to do is to get him to see the value of anticipation, long phases of excitement, and waiting for you to get home. After all, if the experience you provide for him is so far greater than what he can do for himself, he’ll wait.
I understand both sides of it. Wanting relief right away, and also wanting to have tremendous anticipation and build-up. The anticipation side of it is incredible, but it also might take some work on your part to get him to see this.
Interesting that PhilC seems to know what all men AND all women think.
We are not all the same. Phil does not have the same thoughts as every other man. You can’t say that men are first attracted to physical beauty. This may be true for some men, but it is certainly not true for all. If it were, only attractive women would be paired off and this is obviously not the case. And you can’t say, well, maybe they have an ugly face but a rocking bod. Again, obviously not true for many women who are in LTRs.
Also, that is a old myth that men are more visually stimulated than women. This has been disproven over and over again by reputable tests. But some men seem to get some sort of validation out of believing the myth. I don’t get it.
Next, porn is demeaning to women. Some is really, really, virulently, disgustingly anti-women. If men need that sort of thing to get off, then something is wrong with those men. But, again, I will not put all men in the porn “boat” because I know there are many, many men who do not need porn to prove their manliness. It’s especially despicable for a man to be in a committed relationship and get off to porn instead of waiting to share himself with a willing partner. That is cheating, pure and simple. It’s not about “taking care of a headache.” It’s way more personal than that.
It makes me sad that some men think women exist to be visually stimulating for them. One of the earlier posters said that (not his exact words, but pretty close.) These men can’t have real relationships with women if they can’t see that we don’t exist solely FOR them (and their viewing pleasure.)
Honestly, if I thought all men were like most of the men who posted here, I would become a Lesbian. Happily, though, I have met enough men who don’t have the views espoused here to restore some of my faith in MANkind.
Don’t bother leaving one of your diatribes for me, Phil. It won’t change my views, anymore than I know I won’t change yours. But I guess you love to air your rants against women in public.
CaroJ,
Wow. You really told me. I hope you feel better about yourself. What’s sad, is, I’d be happy to listen to a different view and am willing to re-think my stance, if there’s some intelligent fact-based reason to. Your emotional drivel is not, and only further reinforces my opinion. What’s worse, is you have stated that you WILL NOT change your mind. I love when dumb chicks help prove my point. Narrow-minded? who’s more narrow-minded than someone who exclaims ‘you will not change my opinion’? As I’ve said in the past, you are doing nothing but proving my point about how narrow minded women are. You’re also proving that no matter how many times I post EXACTLY what I mean, you, along with other mentally challenged women, continue to ignore and comment on what I actually write, and only comment on what you think I said. It would be wonderful to actually have a coversation with an intelligent woman. I know they exist. Unfortunately, they aren’t taking the time to post in here.
Randomly stating that I know what men and women want is just pure emotional garbage that you spew because you don’t want to take the time to think about what I say, and only want to assume what you think I mean. I’ve very clearly stated that I don’t speak for ALL men, simply most men. I’ve also very clearly stated that women should not and do not live for men’s viewing pleasure. How you get that in any of my posts is beyond me. You do prove my point, yet again, though.
See, YOU decide to make the connection between a man wanting physical beauty and sex (which he has a right to), and ‘men think women exist just for their viewing pleasure’.
I’ve simply stated that men want what they want. There’s nothing wrong with that. It doesn’t matter if you like it or not. Why? Women want what they want, and you don’t see men trying to change it, living in denial about it, or complaining about it all the time. Why? We’re intelligent enough to accept it as a fact of life, even if we don’t like it. You want what you want. If person A doesn’t provide you with what you want, then person A isn’t ‘worthy’ enough for you.
Why should it be any different for men?
Also, porn is in no way degrading to women. Women want sex. Men and women are having sex in porn. Maybe it’s not how YOU want to have sex, but who the f@ck are you to judge how others wish to have sex? Narrow minded. It’s a fantasy world. You want a real conversation about something? Try this on.
What makes porn degrading? I’m going to assume it’s because they are making women out to be everything that a man desires, and that the women in porn are doing for a man only what men want, and not what the women want. Ok. Based on THAT explanation, then Cinderella is EXTREMELY degrading to men. Any of your ‘princess’ stories are. Why? Well, Prince Charming’s whole existence is to be romantic (what women want, and what men could care less about) and to cater to the women’s every whim. That’s degrading in the same way porn is. If you can’t see that, you’re dumber than a damn rock. What’s the difference? You (women) take EVERYTHING for granted.
Stating that men are not attracted to physical beauty is simply just living in denial, I’m afraid. Now, some men do in fact date or marry less than attractive women. As I’ve stated in the past, attractiveness is the first filter. If you can get past that first filter because maybe you are friends, or whatever other reason and he can see you for the other things you are, then, yes, as I’ve stated before, there are other things men look for. (try reading, or is it your comprehension that is lacking?).
But don’t be so naive as to think just because you’re ugly and you have a man that he doesn’t wish you were more attractive. I PROMISE YOU, HE DOES! Any denial of it is just him wanting to make you feel good, end of story, no matter how convincing he is.
Men lie. Why? We lie because you make us lie. If you don’t believe me, tell me when any of you asks your man ‘do I look fat in this?’, and you do in fact, look fat in that dress, do you assume he shouldn’t tell you the truth? It’s a known fact, women do not want to hear the truth, or all holy hell will break loose. There are some women, I hope, I have to believe, that are willing to hear the truth, and are willing to accept the truth. But I haven’t seen it yet.
Phil c, mayb u can help me then,
been reading the thread and I am still confused…I am a young female, early 30s, i am 5′8 and 115 lbs(exercise 5days a wk) w augmented breast 32DDD to be exact…I get my nails done every 2wks, get facials and massages and everything u can imagine. By beauty standards I look like a Brunette Pamela Anderson. And to top it off I am a doctor (English is not my first language).
I am sexually open, do not need the foreplay every time, spontaneous and pretty much open in bed. I am in a new relationship w a very handsome man who also takes care of himself and as far as I knew we were very sexually compatible. I ask him about his fantasies and what he likes and he doesn’t reveal much. I even asked him if he goes on line for porn and he denied it saying he is not much into porn.
#days ago I accidentally found out that he visits several sex sites online (mostly extremely large breasted women), he denied i and then stated that its normal blah blah blah…so my question to you is, why would a man in a new relationship w an attractive women who takes care of herself and look even better than some of the porn stars out there, that is willing to give it to him any time, anywhere and is open sexually..then why the hell does he need to still look at porn and tell me its NORMAL????? Th thought of him getting excited over those nasty girls and having to look at that and fantasize about strangers makes me want to puke. Why? Where is this need coming from?
…i just think men cannot hav a monogamous relationship, they need to at least visualize themselves w strangers on a regular basis. Its cheaper and safer this way. May be its better to think all men are pigs and perverted….then life would be much easier:( I hate to have to imagine that my bf stroking himself 3x a wk w thougts of other women is normal and HEALTHY!
atib,
Thank you first of all for actually initiating a conversation with me, rather than just bashing me. You pose a good question.
#1, if he doesn’t want you, I’ll take ya! LOL. I’m not actually a huge Pamela Anderson fan, I usually like women who look more ‘real’, like the girl next door and not so fake. I’m not saying you do look fake, obviously since I can’t see you, but to me, Pamela does.
Anyway, as I have always said, I don’t speak for EVERY man. I think I speak for most, however, and there are a couple of things I can think of, without knowing him, so keep in mind that I’m giving you possible insights to how men generally think, not necessarily how your man specifically thinks.
As beautiful as you may be (I get the feeling you won’t be popular on this sight with the other women who post), that doesn’t mean a guy is going to stop looking and be sexually attracted to other women. See, you are hitting a bit better on a point I’ve been trying to make, and it gets glossed over by some of the insecure women who have been bashing me.
That point is, you call it ‘perverted and men being pigs’. That viewpoint of negativity is what the problem is. See, you’ve set it in your mind(s) that men liking visualization is ‘perverted’ (a guy wanting to look up a hot girl’s skirt). It’s not ‘perverted’, cuz that’s such a negative connotation. It’s how we’re wired. Without it, there would be no relationships. Without that desire, you wouldn’t have a relationship with a great guy, or a marriage to a great guy. It’s how we are, it’s what drives us to want a relationship to begin with. Without it, I’m sorry, we wouldn’t want a relationship with women. Too much hassle and too many differences.
If you could look at it as ‘men like visualization’ instead of ‘men are pigs or men are perverted’, doesn’t that sound a whole lot more accepting of how a guy is? Doesn’t it sound a whole lot more judgemental to say a guy’s ‘perverted’ when you are talking about a man’s natural instinct that he does not choose to have?
It’s like men calling women ‘dirty’ when they have their period. It’s natural, you don’t have a choice in it, and it’s not very accepting for us to make you feel bad about it, now is it?
Well, it’s the same thing with men and their desires. We shouldn’t be made to feel bad about it, cuz no matter what you do, it isn’t going to change or stop.
Anyway, the point is, because of that desire, it’s not just going to go away just because he’s in a relationship. The same reason he wanted you to begin with, doesn’t just automatically subside, because it’s not emotional. It’s sexual. If I see a pretty woman, I’m going to feel desire, regardless if I’m married or not. For many women, even if not all, a relationship is based on emotional gratification. Men don’t need that as much. At least not as our primary desire. You can’t expect it to change automatically once you are in a relationship.
Now, yes, I would think he’d prefer to use that sexual energy with you, but that’s where subtle differences within people comes into play. Maybe you’re too ‘easy’. I don’t mean that negatively, I personally would appreciate that openness, but just like some women, some guys want what they can’t have, or have to work hard to get.
As an idea, one that he would probably find incredibly erotic, ask him to come into the computer room with you. When he comes in, start looking at some of the sites with him. You don’t have to pay attention to them, but if you’re in there, ask him what he likes about it. If he likes a certain position or ’sexual move’ they are doing, offer to do that with him right then and there. You’re taking his desires of what the people are doing on the screen and relaying that energy and desire toward you.
You have to understand something. A big thing of what I’m trying to get across. Men feel ‘dirty’ about how they feel, because of women’s perceptions (and public perception) “you’re perverted, you’re dirty, you’re a pig”, rather than acceptance of human differences. That perception will NOT make them change. It will only make them want to do it secretly, and may even cause rebellion to prove a point. You notice he couldn’t tell you he was looking at porn?
That’s because he knows you would somehow make that a negative thing. It’s not, and he’s NOT going to change it. He shouldn’t. Why not just accept it? The more accepting of it you are, the more likely he is to not care about it as much. It won’t be a ‘guilty pleasure’.
Think about a common theme among many women, I’m sure most of you would agree…if your mom or dad doesn’t like boyfriend A, you’re NOT going to change your mind, if it’s something you want. You’ll usually just sneak around with him. Some women do conform to what mom and dad want, but many don’t. See the connection? If you want something, disapproval from others won’t change it, it will only make you sneak around to get it.
But by being open to it, you’re allowing him to feel better about it. Then, yeah, he might still look at it, but he’ll feel a whole lot more willing to take that sexual energy and point it toward you, because he doesn’t feel bad about it.
Within all of my rambling, does that make sense?
A point to make, also about a post from a jf above. She brings religion into this. I would whole-heartedly agree that there in a christian based relationship, there is no room for porn. However, if it’s TRULY christian, there’s also clear guidelines for women to be submissive to her husband.
Reason is, both the man and the woman are not focusing their attention on what the other person is doing, they are focusing their attention on what they are doing FOR GOD. For their Lord and Savior. The man, for his duties that the Lord calls upon him to do, would love and cherish his wife above all others, outside of Christ. That is what the Bible says he should do.
I know, most of you women are crying ‘AMEN’ to that. What hypocrisy. Cuz most of you would also conveniently forget the next part which clearly states the woman’s role in a relationship. She is to put her husband ABOVE herself and submit to him, help him, play a secondary role to him. She would be doing that because of her devotion to being a better christian, and that’s what God commands of her to do in a christian relationship, even if she doesn’t agree with it. God doesn’t say to watch and make sure the other person is doing their role. He says you should do your role, take care of your business first.
Wanted to point that out, because jf’s post above, while it could be very helpful, you must be careful not to be a complete hypocrit and use religion only as a way to break your man from porn. If you want the help of God, dedicating your life to Christ, you clearly need, as a woman, to be submissive to your man, among other things (that’s not the ONLY thing to do as a christian woman, but it’s part of). Ignoring that part would be more hypocritical than the pharacies of the time. You know, the people who Christ loudly and boldly put in their place while on earth? At least they could claim there was no precedence set.
But, if you don’t believe in the ’submissive’ rule of the bible, then by default, you can’t believe in the immorality of porn, and use the bible as your backup.
My posts are simply for the standard, real life non-christian people who make up 98% of our country. For those who are true followers and believers in christianity, well, you probably aren’t on here to begin with.
OK. I said I wouldn’t return, but unfortunately left my laptop on with this page still on it. So, when I opened the lid, there it was… It was like a car crash, I couldn’t NOT look.
Phil, you don’t know S*it about me, but because I disagree vehemently with you, you choose to call me an idiot (or certainly words to that effect… I’m not going to re-read your piece of trash response to get the exact words you use.) I can assure you (although you obviously won’t believe me) I am a very intelligent person.
You are obviously a close-minded know-it-all. You may not claim to speak for all men, just MOST men! That’s just about as bad. You don’t know the minds of most men, and you certainly don’t know the minds of most women! You could argue that I don’t either… and that’s true. But I choose to believe that most people (including MEN) are good people. And if I believe that, I cannot believe that they judge women primarily on their looks. I know from the evidence I see everyday that this is not true. I also do not believe that men can’t be faithful to one woman, pyschologically as well as physically.
There is no such thing as hardwiring. Men are no more destined to choose women based on looks than women are. And women are not more romantically inclined… at least not naturally. Society may have pigeonholed us into these roles and believing that this is the natural way of “being” but it just myth.
Porn is degrading to women. I may not be a faithful viewer as you are, but I have read about what it contains (from various sources, including how routine viewers have described it). Horrible depictions of women being gangraped, having p*nises shoved down their throats until they choke and even worse which I will not go into. If you think there is nothing wrogn with these depictions, you are one sick f$ck (hey, you used that term first).
I know I am kind of rambling here. I am angry. And no, that does not make me any more ruled by my “emotions” than your diatribe has proved you to be. That word “emotional” is used to imply women cannot think rationally. Obviously, that is no more fair than saying men can’t think straight because they are ruled by testosterone.
You obviously have a lot of rage to get out and need to justify your actions by saying that this isthe way that most men are. YOU are the way you are but don’t try to bring the rest of your gender down to your level.
I could refute your points one by one, but I have wasted enough of my time on you and you are so long-winded it would take for-freaking-ever.
Now, I am going to close this web page and never reopen it. Feel free to engage in your rants against women (’oh why can’t women be more like men”… pretty much sums up your theme). I would stop you if I could, but I don’t have that power.
Thank goodness there are some (most) good men out there. You sure as hell aren’t one of them.
CaroJ,
You’ve already said enough. You’re close-minded, I get that. You think you’re intelligent, however, you fail to grasp really simple concepts. You just say ‘diatribe’ twice so you can feel like you’re smart. Good job. These concepts just take a little effort to think about, and you’d see I’m right.
You are right about one thing, I’m a bit long-winded. That makes for a hard read. I will try to shorten and still get my point across.
First, the porn you describe is rather crude and disgusting, for my tastes. I don’t care about that porn. I don’t judge others who do, that’s their thing. Narrow-minded as you continue to prove of yourself, however, is assuming that is ALL porn. There are many forms of porn, and I promise, all of it is not as you describe. It’s out there for those who care to view it, sure, but that’s not all porn. So, porn, in general, is not degrading to women. If you would just take a deep breath and calm down, you’d realize that.
Again, no more a narrow mind than one that screams out ‘I will not look at your viewpoint again because I’m right’. You miss SOOO much of what I write because you are acting on emotion.
You somehow get ‘why can’t women be more like men’ from me. Please, I’m giving you a chance to prove me wrong (isn’t that OPEN-MINDED?) SHOW ME WHERE I SAY THAT!!!
Instead, I insist on the opposite. I have stated since the beginning of my posts that women have the right to think differently than men. I’ve NEVER suggested that they shouldn’t. Again, take the time to prove me wrong and I’ll admit it and shut up. You can’t. What makes you and other women get all angry is when I simply suggest that men HAVE THE RIGHT TO THINK DIFFERENTLY THAN WOMEN. Isn’t that simply asking for equality? God, how awful of me. How dare I suggest people have the right to view things differently? It’s right here in ALL of my posts.
Answer me this. How can you comfortably say that I wrongly think I speak for most men? After all, what you are saying is even more disturbing. You are a woman. You are not only suggesting that you speak for all or most women, you suggest that most men do not view things as I do. That means you are speaking for most men. Without being a man. LOL…so is it worse for a man to think he speaks for most men or for a woman to think she speaks for most women AND men? At least I have allowed that women are allowed to view things differently than men. Answer that question for me, honestly. Maybe you’ll start to look in the mirror and say you’re wrong. But you won’t. Hence my point about women being narrow-minded. I just proved to you how much more controlling your viewpoint is than mine (which, I believe in the 30s when it was men that were controlling, it was a NEGATIVE THING), and yet I promise I will not see any realization of your own error in judgement. Isn’t an unwillingness to change your viewpoint (upon proof of being wrong) just plain narrow-minded and stubborn? Answer that for me.
Everyone who can throw emotion out while reading this just all said ‘he’s right’, and are waiting to see if you would be strong enough to admit you’re wrong. You’re not. Men are, generally. The men in the 30s were very wrong (or will you continue to ignore my support of SOME feminist views while you bash me?). They changed that. That shows intelligence enough to allow for other people to have different viewpoints. I have yet to see that from any feminists when I simply try to point out that men think differently from women and that it shouldn’t change. It’s NOT WRONG. Dare I say the men of the 30s (who were your worst enemy) are more intelligent, and accepting of others than the feminists of today? At this point based on what proof we have, I’m sorry, but it’s true.
Talk about hypocrisy.
CaroJ,
One more point. You already stated what the real problem is: “I CHOOSE to believe most people are good people…blah, blah, blah…and if you they don’t think like me, they’re not good people.” Reword it for what it really means: “I’m narrow-minded. I believe EVERYONE should think within the walls and parameters I have set up, and anyone who doesn’t is disgusting, filthy, ignorant, blah, blah, blah”.
I think Sadam Hussein felt that way. Joseph Stalin. Hitler. Killed millions of people for thinking differently than what they did. Ok. And I’m the f@cked up one because I like to look at naked women on the internet? LOL. I wish you were intelligent enough to see how silly you are, I really do. Oh well, one of life’s little pleasures I’ll never get to enjoy.
PhilC
You make a lot of very good points. Gradually, these, often secretly held, views are starting to surface amongst more and more men as they gain confidence in expressing them, from the support they receive from both men and women. Although they might not want to admit it on here, I’m sure your posts have provoked some thought amongst some of the female readers. It’s only by airing our views and allowing dialogue to take place that we can hope to learn more and affect positive change. Just wanted to acknowledge your contribution.
Thank you Adam. I truly hope what you say is true, I for one wish men would speak out a bit more. Unfortunately, I haven’t seen it enough. Of course, I’m not actively looking (I wasn’t even looking for this article, it was a link from another article that caught my attention).
To the author of this sexual diatribe, (’rant’ for those with a deprived vocabulary) which is nothing more than a royal tribute to the survival of the long-hated and much-loathed sexual double standard, goes the Raspberry Award!
I’m sure you wish all women believed that horse hockey you espoused. If they did, that would absolve men of all sexual responsibility and give them a free pass for doing anything they want to do because they’re ‘hard wired.’
I thought it was the girl who ‘couldn’t help it.’
Men shouldn’t be so cocky (no pun intended – or maybe it is) as to think that they have a lock on sexual desires or behavior in ’solving’ those desires – not my word. I know men don’t want to hear that, because it would take them out of that ‘comfort zone’ where they believe that women would NEVER cheat, visit prostitutes, watch porn, or masturbate, which are MauiPete’s only listed ’solutions’ for men to have sexual release. I didn’t see much of anything about emotional sex with someone you love or at least care about, which in my experience, beats the hell out of the rest of the ’solutions.’
And some women may not do all of those things that you said men do, some may not do any of them, just like men, women make choices in life. But to say that men have to do those things, because it’s ‘their nature,’ implying that women don’t have a ’sexual nature,’ is way over the top. That’s a con, and an oversimplified generalization of both sexes. And most women aren’t buying into it anymore.
You wouldn’t be a really old guy, would you, like from way back? Because this junk you’re writing could only be swallowed by women who didn’t make it to the sixties. Take off those rose colored glasses, chum. Women expect more from men than simply being a dog (your analogy, MauiPete) and since there are so many men to choose from, they don’t have to settle for less than the best of the lot, even when they’re just having a little fun. I’m sure you don’t agree with my response, but sorry to say ‘that’s just the way it is.’
‘Girls just want to have fun.’
Your article was kind of interesting in a throw-back (Neanderthal) sort of way and kind of sad and humorous at the same time. I mean finding that there are some men out there who still think like that and are not afraid to actually put it in writing, risking scorn and ridicule, gives credence to the old saying that you just can’t kill a bad idea.
And the remark about men ‘releasing’ their sexual tensions when they get horny so they can ‘clear their heads’ and get on to ‘more important things,’ almost turned MY head around on my shoulders. I happen to think that sex is one of the most important things in life, and I clear my head of all the other garbage so I can get to that important part. And I don’t think of it as a drunken ’sideline’ or a ’snack’ before dinner. It’s sweet dessert.
So to those unfortunates who don’t get any dessert?
I’m sorry.
Maybe your ‘nature,’ and your ‘hard wiring,’ and your ‘beer goggles,’ aren’t working as well as MauiPete tells you they are.
My comments are primarily a response to the author of the article, not necessarily to engage in conflict with the other commentators, since I doubt that any two of us would ever agree on much of anything, and arguing over it would be fruitless.
As to whether MauiPete’s article is ‘hard truth’ or TMI, (too much information) I don’t think it’s either. In my opinion, to which I believe I am entitled, it’s not truthful and therefore not informative, but it has been highly entertaining.
Respond if you wish, but the point was to have my say, as you have all had, but not to engage in disagreeable conflict with those who have a different opinion.
If you think there is anything of value in my response, then you are welcome to take what you will and leave the rest. It’s been a hoot, but I’ll have to take my leave of you now.
My husband’s home early, and it’s time for dinner.
This is the biggest bunch of crap I’ve ever read in my life and I’m talking about the comments. All of these men that say they need porn bc they just need to nut more often is just a poor excuse for not having self control. And saying that women are not into sex as much as men is a bunch of crock. Maybe they need more, not just crap men use that they learned from porn. Where is the romance? Where is the common courtesy? Men don’t even hold the door for women anymore. And don’t blame it on the feminists, yes women deserve equality bc we’re all human but some things still apply. All of these are just excuses. What happened to love? Making love? Where the hell has all of that gone?
All the men saying women should take better care of themselves and that is why men look at porn, answer this for me…How come the boyfriends and husbands of strippers and models (or women who just look like models or strippers) also look at porn? I worked in a strip club for years, and I have a much higher sex drive than my man. I want to have sex sometimes more than once a day. SUPPOSEDLY porn does nothing for him. I don’t believe him for a second, but I am a very attractive and in shape woman who will have sex anytime and anywhere he wants, and he still looks at porn. Why?
Daisy, I feel for you. I’m not what you’d call a highly attractive woman, just average. I wish I was as beautiful as a model all the time… not a skinny waif model, but a gorgeous, curvy woman. Like strippers, yeah. So I can only think how devastating it can be for you to be in that situation.
I’m sure most guys would kill to be with you. I mean, an attractive woman with a high sex drive? Yeah, guys love that. Unfortunately, some men are into porn more than real sex. I don’t know if your partner is addicted or not. But you know, I *think* (and only think, because I don’t know how men’s minds work), but I think that some guys get hooked on porn, or rather, on masturbation, because then they have complete control over the sensations. It’s not much watching these women, but rather, that literally only their own hand can please them. Because it feels tighter, because they know what they like, whatever… but I’ve read about it. Some men have that problem, that they become desensitized to anything else and they rely solely on their hand for pleasure. Well, and also because then they don’t have to worry about performance anxiety and they can feel like “the man”… which is a bit pathetic considering they’re not “the man” if they aren’t pleasing a lady… which they could do if they were a bit less selfish and learned how to please a woman…
MEN: it’s not that hard to please a woman sexually! Honestly! It’s about the clitoris, for most women, oral sex does it. A sexually satisfied woman will be more than happy to reciprocate and work on her techniques to please YOU. Because most women care a huge deal about pleasing their man. At least I don, and so do most women I know. The rejection a woman can feel sometimes, when her partner uses too much porn, has more to do with thinking she doesn’t please him enough rather than feeling unattractive.
Anyway. Both parties in a relationship should do their part. Porn is fine, in moderation, yes. It’s a compromise women have to do… only if the sex life is good. Girls, if you don’t like porn… well, if the sex life is good, let him watch it. If it’s not good, then speak up.
Daisy, most men prefer the real thing, especially with an attractive woman with a high sex drive, like you. Honestly. I may not be a guy, but I know this to be 100% true. I’m sure even PhilC would agree, even if only with this one FACT. Because it’s a fact of life.
Girls: I don’t like porn, and I can get the jealousy pang now and then over his appreciation of better looking females… but our sex life is great, and he prefers the real thing, so I just compromise and accept his ocassional porn watching. He’s great in bed and he caters to my emotional needs. I think it’s a fair compromise – but guys, remember, sex is not just about you… learn to please your lady. Although I think most guys eagerly do this… healthy, normal guys can enjoy porn in moderation anyway. And they like pleasing women… they’re eager to learn, because I’ve heard from my boyfriend that nothing is better for the ego than making a woman reach orgasm.
Phew… that was long! Sorry!
Lee,
I know you don’t want to get into a debate with posters, that’s fine. I understand why. However, the problem I have with what you state is simple. You are trying to talk for men. You are trying to say that you don’t WANT to believe what the author says. Ok. I don’t WANT to believe women about how awful their period is, instead I WANT to believe that women are just lazy and want to use their period as an excuse to be a real bitch whenever they feel like it. After all, I bleed. When I scraped my knee when I was a kid, I bled for a while. It didn’t make me grouchy, it didn’t make me act like a real bitch, it just simply hurt a little. So, I am using MY experiences to equate what women feel and go through.
How’s this? You want to touch on a much touchier subject? I’ve been in fights before. Some of which I’ve won, some of which I was clearly overmatched. In those that I was overmatched in, it created no emotional scars. It created no fear or life-long consequences. How is it that women, when faced with a man who abuses them, cannot take it with a grain of salt, and move on with their lives? See, before you go attack me, think about what I’m saying. I’m not downplaying abusive relationships. I’m simply stating that the physical nature of what happens to me in my scenario is no different than what happens to women when she is abused. In both cases, we are being physically dominated by another person. The difference is emotional. Doesn’t that AUTOMATICALLY show that men and women think differently about things?
See the problem with that? Of course you do. How is it you can’t see the problem with using YOUR experiences to generalize how men feel about things, when it’s a known fact…men and women think differently.
You see, I think it’s the opposite of what you say. You say men make this stuff up because they’re being lazy and don’t want to stop using porn because it’s easy. I think it’s women being lazy to say what you are saying.
See, if you believe that men are just lying and being lazy, you don’t have to accept that they think differently. You can continue to live in your ‘fantasy world’ and think that your viewpoint is the common world-wide accepted viewpoint, and anyone thinking outside of that viewpoint is wrong, dirty, lazy, blah, blah blah. It takes effort and humility to accept that your viewpoint is ONLY your viewpoint. That’s the problem I have noticed in all of the women posters. Care to read any of the posts above, and you will see that. They all say the same thing. It’s fine that they feel that way about sex and porn for THEMSELVES. But how can you use your viewpoint on porn to assume how others should view it?
You and others ask about ‘where’s the romance, where’s the ‘love’ in sex? Sorry. That’s a woman’s concept. That’s why you are having a difficult time accepting this. You feel that way about sex. Therefore you ignorantly think everyone else feels that about sex. Sure, most women might. But you can’t say that about men. If that were the case, prostitution would NOT be the oldest profession in the world. Regardless of how you feel about it, the point is, men don’t ‘love’ those prostitutes. They simply want sexual release. Men do not ‘wait’ until they love a woman in a relationship before they want to have sex with her, it’s quite the opposite. It’s only because of the sexual attraction that makes us want to even get into a relationship. It’s because we are turned on by physical attractiveness, regardless if you want to believe me, regardless of your wishing it weren’t true.
Now, to dispel a feminist ‘myth’. Women want sex just as much as men. That, I’m afraid, just isn’t quite true. I’m not going to say SOME women don’t want it as much, but the truth is, even if a woman wants it MORE often, there’s no way she wants it as much. It does not consume her, like it can consume a man’s thoughts.
Here’s an example of what I mean. Everywhere you go, you will see this. A guy’s driving his car. Sees a really nice ass on a woman on the side of the sidewalk in a short mini-skirt. I PROMISE, EVERY SINGLE MAN who notices will take his eyes off the road and stare for a moment, assuming there is no immediate danger. You won’t see that from women. Now, before you go all ‘dumb guy’ on me, please note, I will also see 10 women in the same time frame putting on their makeup while driving, talking on their cell phone, or even texting while driving. Ok. So, take it for what it’s worth. Guys are just DRAWN to the sexuality that pretty women ooze. Women do not react the same way if a guy’s running in the street with his shirt off and is in really good shape. I’m not saying they won’t notice, but they won’t stop and stare for a long time while driving. I’ve seen guys even watch and turn their head (while driving) to look behind to catch a glimpse.
Also, to prove a point. Strip clubs. Can’t say there’s too many popular male strip clubs around, and I’ve heard first-hand from every woman I’ve asked about it. They all say the same thing. They like the ‘tease’, the possible fantasy of it, but they don’t want to see a guy coming out with a raging boner sticking in their face. Why? Men want all of women’s privates exposed to them. Hmmm…that sounds to me like men and women think differently about this, don’t you think? Despite what all of your feminists want to tell you, PROOF IS IN LIFE.
Now, why do you and other women insist that men SHOULD think the same. It’s about control, simple enough. If you can say that ‘I feel the same way he does about sex’, then you can control the situation and understand it. If you have no idea what it’s like, you are left to wonder, you are left to question and you are left to have to give of yourself based on faith alone. Women do not want to do that, based on anything I’ve seen.
That needs to change before men and women can ever try to get along.
I think PhilC is taking this too seriously… chill out and hang out for a while at http://www.menarebetterthanwomen.com, seems like the place just for you.
Honestly, though, I think most women do realize that men and women are different, and think and perceive things differently. Feminism strives for equity, namely regarding stuff like income, and other stuff. Yeah, some feminists talk about sex, but it’s hardly the main concern for feminism. I’m not a feminist and I know that.
I think the battle of the sexes is bulls***. I’m absolutely tired of it. “Men do this and that and blah, blah, blah…”. “Oh, but women are always nagging and whining, yadda-yaddah”.
Men complain about women just as much as women complain about men, stop it already, and if you really can’t stand your differences with the opposite sex so much, become a homosexual! If your own gender is better, then be either lesbian or gay. If that’s not an option then just shut up and accept the differences, move on.
This is a pretty scary place here. I’m seeing the worst side of people come out to play, in their relative anonymity.
My suggestion for alot of you that seem quite angry at the world:
(1) get some hobbies
(2) get some new friends that aren’t meatheads
(3) start dating; this is likely your biggest problem.
Seriously though, find a nice young lady to start dating and you’ll calm your nerves. All of us have quirks/quarks that other people find annoying. Live with it. After all, you’re not dating a plastic barbie doll [at least I hope not]. You’re dating someone that is happy and/or sad at times. Sometimes the behavior is downright unexplainable. C’est la vie
If you know you’re an angry rude s.o.b., then I highly suggest seeking professional help. Not only will you remain a miserable turd, but nobody likes being around miserable turds. I see some miserable turds here. You know who you are. Excuses or explanations are unacceptable, you have nobody to blame anymore but yourself.
On a positive note, I saw a red bellied warbler today. Exciting I know.
A woman,
See, you must not have read anything that’s going on in this string of messages to understand anything I’ve said, if you are going to write what you did about my post.
You say most women realize that men and women think differently. However, the very reason I posted was in response to women posters who were saying that men do not think like what the MAN who wrote the article was saying they do. Simply stated, it was women posters who were not allowing or acknowledging that men are allowed to think differently about sex than they do. See, within these posts, many women have suggested that they REFUSE to believe men are hard-wired, they refuse to believe men think differently by nature. So, while I wish what you say were true, I have seen no evidence of that in these posts, at least not from MOST of the women.
One more point, nothing I’ve EVER said suggests men are better than women. Please point out to me where I say that, I’m giving you an opportunity to prove me wrong.
I’m sorry you have decided to read into something that simply is not there. It does help prove me right anytime any of you women posts things like ‘philc thinks men are better than women, women should live for men, blah, blah, blah…’ It proves that you aren’t capable, at least at this point, of reading something for what is being said. You only read as you WISH to read it. You try reading into something that simply isn’t there, otherwise you could never come to the conclusion you did about me, and that’s an undeniable fact.
Aaron,
I see why you say what you say about needing a date, as you obviously only read one tiny section of what I wrote. Don’t bother reading the rest, it’s too much for you. See, you make assumptions about me, yet it’s you who isn’t willing to take the time to understand what I’m saying. That’s part of the problem. If you’re a guy, you are part of the problem.
In our society, it’s typical of men to ‘just accept things as they are’ and not complain about things. I understand why. Life is short. Why spend it working toward making a difference when you might not make a difference anyway? Enjoy your life. I get that. I do enjoy my life, quite enough, thanks. I just happen to think about things, apparantly moreso than you. That’s fine. I don’t care that you don’t think about these things. However, where women were wronged, they spoke out about it. Where men are wronged, they don’t. They are taught to ‘just accept it’. That’s a good trait to have most of the time. Not all of the time.
If everyone was like you, Aaron, minorities and women never would have been given the right to vote, and we would currently still be living in the 20s. See, it was the work of those people who changed our society. They opened the right minds to see things differently than what they did at the time.
I come here and see feminist posts indicating a flat-out REFUSAL to believe and accept it when a guy simply states that men are naturally drawn to sex, porn, physical beauty. The outrage indicated a TRUE problem that may be developing in our society. And, that problem, is an unwillingness to accept a different viewpoint from their own. I do have a problem with that. I will speak out against that, and I certainly am not going to stop because some dude named Aaron doesn’t care to think about this. Do as you wish. I’m trying to open some minds so others can be accepting of people. The more understanding and acceptance, the better men and women will get along.
Why do men look at porn? Its easy! It’s alot easier to get off to watching sex then imagining it. Why do men lie about watching it? They are afraid of they’re mates reaction. Is watching porn bad, is it cheating? YES and NO! It depends on the relationship and how you and your partner feel about it. Is having other sexual partners wrong? Most of the time yes, but not always. It depends on the relationship. Its the responsibly of both parties to figure out what is and isn’t acceptable in a relationship. There should be no gray areas here. Masturbation? It’s normal and idk about the rest of you but I find it to be a damn pain to be horny and walking around with a rod or fantasies plaguing you. Plus men who masturbate are LESS likely to get prostate cancer. I think ill take that option. Can Porn and masturbation be a problem? YES! If you like porn or masturbating more then having sex with your partner there is defiantly something wrong there. It should just be a quick fix until later. Also if a guy masturbates most likely he will last longer later on. My gf and I enjoy making love quite abit. However there are times that one of us just aren’t in the mood. So what do we do? The one in the mood looks at porn and masturbates!
I have dated very attractive women before, but that has never stopped me from enjoying watching porn. There is something about having the ability to view naked beautiful women at anytime that is irrestible to me and other porn fans. Can porn be degrading to women? Yes. Do I care? No. Do I tranfer my porn fantasies to my personal sex life? Sometimes. Does it affect my relationships? I am not sure.
Isn’t there a monitor on this site to keep off bores like PhilC?
Who and what did this self-loved moron pester before the internet gave it access to spew stupidity.
PhilC, a few things.
- Brevity: if you have anything good to say, you can say it concisely. You are too lawyerly and rambling in your responses.
- Determinism: the point you completely miss is that your attraction to thin women was conditioned. In other times on this planet men went wild over big fat women. While most feminists may be thinly-veiled man haters, the goal of any true feminist is societal change over time in what gets conditioned into us all. As you observe, without such people slavery etc. would still exist.
- Tone and implication: Just because you don’t say something verbatim doesn’t mean you didn’t “say” it.
I am recently single and I watch porn all the time. I don’t actually like most of it, however, it’s almost all disgusting! So I should say that I search for ‘good’ porn all the time. Why?
As others have mentioned, I want to relieve the sexual tension quickly and get on with my life. I don’t want the women I encounter in daily life or at work to have undue power over me because I’m incredibly horny. Sound familiar, girls? I don’t want to be some leering retard on the subway. I want something other than how luscious a woman’s midriff or hips look to occupy my mind’s eye for a few hours.
Why don’t I seek sex from actual women most of the time? Because I find most people (not singling out women) really want external validation FAR more than they want sex. They want me to “choose” them, to “love them for them” and have a relationship, to spend tons of my time with them. What if I don’t want to – is that so insulting? I’m not insulted if you don’t want that from me!
Just as men have been conditioned to desire supermodel skinny women – which I admit is idiotic – women have been conditioned that they shouldn’t want sex. It’s “bad”. It’s especially bad to have an “only sex” relationship with a man. A man! Ohmahgawd!
Women are conditioned to think like hookers. I have no problem with actual hookers and I make no negative judgments. I DO have a problem with women who are not hookers but who still think that way. They think they need to “get something” in exchange for sex. They need to get “security” or a ring or a lifestyle. If they give a BJ it’s a sacrifice or a gift to some dirty man, etc. How about just enjoying the act of sex? Why does it always have to be quid pro quo?
You can tell a fake feminist from a real one in this way. The real ones want all the barriers removed – meaning ‘just sex’ relationships are fine and dandy if they so desire – but the fake ones want only anti-women bullshit eradicated. The pro-women bullshit is just fine, thank-you!
I am attracted to a wide variety of women and generally disgusted by pornstars and supermodels, but I’m MORE disgusted by “normal” women with the mentioned conditioned beliefs.
Give me enough physically “normal”, (yes, even fat though not obese) healthy women with healthy sex drives who view sex not as validation and not as a bargaining chip and I’ll give up porn for life! I know these women do exist but they are so far far and few between in these United States and in very high demand.
TLDR: I like to boogie.
I just want to know how often is normal? My live in boyfriend and I have sex several times a week, at times twice a day. We’ve been together for 9 yrs, I never say no, if anything he is the one who at times has complained about being tired. I’m willing to do many thing with him & have done many things. I don’t have a problem with him watching porn alone, since I do it myself, even though not as often.
I’m not in bad shape being that I had a baby 7 months ago I’m working out and is going good & I don’t think that’s a problem for him because nothing has changed between us. Since the beggining of our relationship he watches porn every time he is alone and he hides it. Yet, it bothers him to think I do the same. Is that normal or should I be concerned?
Wham,
I have stated a few times I’m a bit long winded.
I have much to say and reasons for what I say. It goes against conventional thought of this time. In order to properly convey so the reader may understand, I try to make examples that connect what I’m saying with something they may understand. It gets long-winded. Don’t read it if you don’t wish.
I don’t agree with your assessment of me (or other men) being ‘conditioned’ to like thin women. I will give you the opportunity to give me an example or some proof on conditioning to prove your point. However, just because some feminist groups want to say ‘we are conditioned to think a certain way’ does not mean it’s actually true. I promise, as you may or may not have seen, I am willing to think for myself, regardless if it’s the popular opinion or not, therefore, I promise, any attraction I have to women is due to what nature / god intended created in me. I believe your statement of me being ‘conditioned’ goes much deeper than just some popular belief in our society, so I would be interested as to your reasoning on that subject.
#3, For you to say my Tone suggests I imply something that I simply have not stated is ridiculous. Please, point to what my ‘tone’ says. Sure, I use CAPS to show emphasis. But never have my CAPS indicated I think women are inferior, women are dumb, blah, blah all the things female posters have indicated I say, even though I’ve CLEARLY never said those things. Yes, that CAPS is meant to indicate very strongly that I’ve made myself clear, and any belief to the contrary is WRONG.
@PhilC : OK. I agree with most of what you said so far. We are all human. I as a woman, watch porn too, I enjoy it. Most of my work involves talking on the phone and I will ocassionally be turned on by some really hot deep voices some of our customers have.
I can relate to men looking after women on the street, or at porn. Just as I will look after men on the street and be arroused(I don’t make a goal out of it, it just happens, nice dude turns up and I will turn my head after him), or I’ll get amazingly arroused when I hear a voice that ‘presses some buttons in my brain’. I find that to be normal. I also look at porn and love it when some guy keeps going at it for 20-30 minutes, but that doesn’t make me not appreciate my real live man who ..well, just isn’t a porn star. So I get it how men can separate porn from reality and not necesarily want an airbrushed girl in real life.
When you get married you decide, together (at least in my and my husbands case) that you will not have sex with other people. You don’t decide you won’t be atracted to other people because that’s really impossible. You won’t decide you’ll never masturbate (goes for both of us again)…I’ll sometimes be tired and rather love myself in 2-3 minutes than do it with him and take a half an hour to. I can understand why he would want to do the same. I can also understand why he wants some variety once in a while, and for me it seems like a fair deal for him to watch porn and not be out there banging another chick.
But, and here comes the big but…this kind of thinking has brought me to…him not admiting to watching porn (though I have no problem with it and admit doing it myself), him not admiting to please himself while he’s watching it. Him wanting me about once every month or two. (i’m not being arrogant here but I do have big boobs, a round butt and a skinny waist, and a pretty kinky child like face to top it.).
Not only will I not say no to anything, I am actually quite attracted to some ideas inspired from porn, as in, i would love to do that, but he thinks it’s awkward to do such stuff with his wife. So he refuses to. And I can’t do them with someone else because I don;t want to cheat on him. So basically he’s just hiding around, watching porn every day (to be fair, he doesn;t loose nights doing it or anything, just the quick 5-6 minuter when i’m not at home), looks at other chicks on the street (obviously) and will refuse any kind of sex from my part unless i’m wearing some reaaaaaaly sexy underwear (and even then i dunno if he finds me attractive or just gives in cause I put effort in it). If I ask him he’ll say ‘I rarely think about sex’. But ofc, he watches porn every day. So…he’s telling lies right? I’ve even heard…’oh, don’t do that, you’ll get me horny and I don’t want to have sex.’. I’m actually trying to be tolerant and understanding. But if I don’t understand something and he refuses to talk about it, how can i be understanding and tolerant?
After going out every day with tons of guys hitting on me and letting me know exactly what they’d do to me if they’d catch me, I come home to a husband that has just had his 5-6 minutes of porn and relief and will not even look at me. I am dead sure I’m not at all unattractive, I am dead sure I’m smart, I cook and clean, I have a job, I’m open-minded to practically anything and still, nothing happens. Moreover, if I try make something happen and I don’t have perfect timing and attitude = think along the lines of sexy lingere, bottle of wine in one hand, cat-walking through the door and acting sexy and smiley and enthusiastic, he will not have sex with me except for that 1 time every one-two months. Now, as I’ve said before, i cook, clean, have a job, come home from work, give him a massage cause he’s tired, try to make him laugh cause he’s stressed. At the end of the day, I have this relatively relaxed, fed, happy man…that…hmm…won’t have sex with me.Now, from that point of view I can’t help but wonder if porn doesn’t make some men lazy(I’m not claiming this is true..I’m just considering it). Good looking woman in real life means effort from his part, good looking woman on the screen means just sitting down and enjoying. Besides, a real live woman cannot read your mind and do whatever you want without telling her. The woman on the screen can do whatever you want, because she IS in your mind. If that’s what’s happening here, well, it’s really really ruining my marriage. He refuses to talk about it. All I want is to sit down and get to know eachother sexually. I wish I would know what he wants, but then again I’m not a mind reader. And I wish it wasn’t so hard for two people at 24-25 to have decent sex at least once a week. And aside from that to openly discuss our self-pleasing habbits. I’m not only not accusing men of anything, I’m actually trying to understand one. I am actually asking what he needs. For a long time I thought lack of sex made me frustrated. No, thinking I’m not capable of pleasing him sexually makes me frustrated. Him never bothering to ask for anything sexual, talk about anything sexual, say what he desires and fantasizez about, that’s what makes me pissed. It makes me feel like I’m not in an intimate relationship, that it’s more like a brother/sister or mother/kid thing. Which means my mind perceives it as if I don’t have a man around, which obviously makes me more horny and frustrated. But I can’t talk to him or cheat, so I’m basically stuck in frustration.
Before you accuse women of being worried about porn, please do realize that just as an above poster said, men and women are different, just as some men and other men are different. And porn can reck a marriage because it’s the easy way out for a man. If he’s lazy, he might stick to porn, if his wife doesn’t satisfy him (because he hasn’t said what he likes) he’ll turn to porn, not bothering to talk it over with her and why it’s not working. If he’s tired from work, he’ll just go watch porn. Or in my dude’s case…he’s never ever known what turns him on (has been like this since day one of our relationship) and he’ll prolly rather just fins something and self-love himself than ever bother to explain it to me. Have you ever heard of the concept of a woman that doesn’t have sex regularly being mean and isterical and frustrated? Has any man ever read Freud? Does any man know that just as it’s the wife’s responsibility to keep her man satisfied, it’s the man’s responsibility to keep his woman satisfied else she’ll become angry and bitter and frustrated? What more can I do to please him exactly? If this sounds angry, it’s because I am. Hope you’ll say what opinion you have on this.
Serah,
wow, you’re almost as long-winded as I am!!! That’s ok, as I’ve argued about myself, you have a lot to say and reasons for saying it, so it takes time, and I am ok with that.
Serah, please bear with me, I’m certainly not going to personally attack you, you are one of the few women who’s been reasonable with me.
I suggest one thing at this point before I go further, and that is to make sure you are honest with yourself. I don’t care if you’re honest with me. I only say this because I have to assume everything you are describing is EXACTLY how it truly is. It’s very easy, when trying to make a point, to ‘forget’ something, or to make things sound a lot less your fault than what it really is. It’s human nature and in no way am I saying you ARE doing that, or that you are at fault, please don’t read into it. I’m simply saying you need to know yourself if you are doing that, because one or two of the things you might be leaving out or overlooking might be the ‘root cause’ of some of this frustration.
Now, going off of the assumption you are telling it exactly as it is, I can only offer a few things, maybe somethings you don’t want to hear. I obviously can’t speak for every individual on their likes/dislikes, where someone may vary from me.
#1)I can say it is possible that what you say about ‘being lazy’ is true, in this case. Again, I only caution and argue against many women posters who have generalized and indicated that ‘all men, blah, blah, blah’. I’m not blind to the fact that porn CAN cause problems. I think that’s an extreme, and you may happen to be with a guy who is an extreme case. If it is, obviously, he’ll need some help. I always caution women though, to understand what ‘needs help’ and what should be ‘acceptable’ as to how a person is, which kind of leads me to another potential thought:
#2) He may be one of those guys that wants sex to be about him, and not about you, and your aggressiveness could be turning him off a bit. I know that somehow sounds so bad to women and so selfish, but it’s also a bit of the root of some of my posts. It doesn’t necessarily mean he doesn’t want you to enjoy it, but it might mean that he wants to be the aggressor, or that he wants to not have to worry about satisfying you. In other words, a more ‘traditional role’.
Here’s where I’m coming from with that: There are some men who want kids, there are many men who don’t. There are some men who want a big house and many who don’t care, and would rather save money and buy something much more affordable than what women want. They view their home only as a place to live. There are some men who want to get married and many men who don’t think about the institution of marriage as anything more than just some ceremony. There are some men who want to talk and communicate about things. There are many men who don’t.
So, here’s the point. If your man doesn’t care that much about having kids, or doesn’t care that much about a big house, or doesn’t care that much about ‘marriage’ (this isn’t about the committment of marriage, rather the ‘institution’ of marriage), but you do have or will have those things, that means he’s put down his own wants of life for your benefit. He’s given to you to make you happy. If he’s there for you to hug and comfort you, he’s not doing it for himself, he’s doing it for you. He may, in return, want sex to be JUST for him. It’s not asking much. It’s a simple case of ‘I’ve made a sacrifice for you, why can’t you sacrifice for me, and give something to me FOR me’?
Again that doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy it. You probably will, and he will want you to enjoy it. It just means you might want to approach it differently, or you may need to allow him to be the aggressor. There are men who don’t think this way, and that’s fine for them. But there are those who do, and that’s fine for them. You just have to try to figure out if your husband is that way or not.
#3) According to what you say, figuring out #2 will be very difficult, because it sounds like he doesn’t communicate much. You may say to him ‘I’m open about porn’, and assume that means he should be able to talk to you about it. But you have to understand, there’s a couple of things at work here against you. First, and most important, is that he’s been taught through society, through maybe his mom, dad, whoever, feminists, that liking porn is ‘bad’. Looking up a hot girl’s skirt is ‘perverted’. Wanting to just go have sex with some hot babe ‘makes him a dog’. There’s A LOT of negative connotations in our society about men’s sexual desires that come naturally. I promise, those things have a negative impact. Much like feminists trying to change girls views that they can’t learn math, this is the same. It’s instilled not only through religion but through society. God, I got hammered just for suggesting that men think women who keep themselves in shape are attractive and men want to have sex with them. And that’s just in 50 something posts from 20 or so people. There’s no way for a guy to feel comfortable about his desires in today’s society, unless he fights through it himself, and has come to the conclusion that ‘it’s ok’. That’s probably why he lies about it.
And the second thing working against you is the fact that many men do not want to communicate about things, especially to women. See, part of that comes from the point of my original post. Men don’t trust that women are capable of understanding and accepting a different viewpoint. Why communicate if you’re just going to be called a ‘pervert’, or ‘lazy’, or whatever. Again, I’m not saying you do this, but it’s a pretty strong perception about women in general. It sounds like you do not fit that mold, which is great. I applaud you and wish you could rub off on some of these other women posters.
That’s not to say it’s all women’s fault, no. There’s also the ‘old school’ of thought about men, created from men, that you just deal with things in life and you don’t complain about them. The quiet strong type who just gets things done. That’s good to an extent, and it’s bad to an extent. So, what you have is probably a guy who has some old school thoughts about communicating, mixed with new school frustration with not trusting women, mixed with societal ideas about how filfthy and disgusting he is, and you’ve got a guy who just simply isn’t going to talk about things too much. And that makes it very hard on you. I get that. Unfortunately, I don’t have many answers as to an immediate solution. I see where things need to change on the whole, but that will take time. It will take time to change our society’s views of what’s ‘perverted’ and what’s just simply natural.
If you try to talk to him, I might suggest opening things up by telling him some things that might make you look or feel ‘dirty’. Things that society says are taboo, maybe a weird fantasy. That will put down his guard, at least on that side of things. If he feels you won’t judge him, it’ll be much easier to open up communication with you. That will actually solve two of the three communication problems that I believe men face. The third is a bit deeper rooted, and you might not have much success with that one, that one being the ‘traditional role’. But I’d at least try what I said, and see if it helps. It can be done in a funny setting, something that’s making light of the subject, so it doesn’t seem so serious.
You obviously need to let him know how his actions affect you. You might find out that you have done some things that have affected him, that you didn’t even realize. As is the case with men and women, hearing those things aren’t easy. Hearing them leads almost automatically to a defense mechanism. Trying to defend one’s viewpoint. While you may have a legit reason for it, doing so will not help matters. Owning up to it will many times break down the barriers of the other. I’m not saying this only for women to do, it’s something good communicators need to do whether man or woman. But since you appear to be the stronger communicator, it will probably fall on your shoulders to ‘be the example’.
If that doesn’t work, you may be left with marriage counseling, an ultimatum to him or deciding for yourself what’s more important: what you want, or staying together with him even if it’s at the cost of what you want.
I’m sorry if what I say doesn’t help you. I hope it helps a little, at least to the point of better understanding, maybe better communication.
PhilC,
While I have some pretty strong opinions about some stuff, I also agree that every single thing can be seen from different angles, and people form different opinions upon it. That’s exactly why I don’t hurry along yelling ‘omg my hubby is watching porn, the jerk’.I might see it as a threat to our marriage, he might see it as keeping our marriage together (along the lines of, for diversity I’d rather watch some porn than cheat..)And I’d appreciate any feedback from anyone, be it positive, negative, or anything, because there is always something to learn from it
I’m going to try to keep it shorter and well structured, although I can’t promise I’ll succeed.
1. I sincerely don’t think the porn ‘is the problem’. It’s more along the lines of, there was a problem which lead him to actually prefering porn to anything else. I see porn as avoidance of the problem on his part because as long as he can stick to that, he doesn’t have to deal with sex, hence he can freely ignore whatever is bothering him and keeping him from having a more active sex life. I can’t call it an adiction. It would be unfair. At the moment he’s just doing it when he has a free day or when I’m home late, which to be honest I do too. Difference between us is I’m completely prepared to be open about why, when and how I do it.I’m not sure if I explained this well enough. I see his watching porn as ‘brooming all the dirt under the carpet’ if you understand what I mean.
2. Actually, I think he makes sex all about me and is bothered because he doesn’t think he can satisfy me. That because of lack of communication and foreplay. And no, i don’t understand forplay as 30-40 minutes of sweet talk. When you see a person on the street, the 1-2-3 minutes you fantasize about them, is a sort of foreplay. That would be enough for me, to think a few sexy thoughts before we start, to get in the mood. (I sometimes get in the mood simply by giving him a massage).
I’m not pointing fingers, but that 1-nce a month thing feels like a hit and run (kinda like ‘honey, i’m home, pack your bags we’re going to Hawaii, oh and by the way, you have 2 minutes to do it – you’re happy and excited but at the same time you have no clue what to grab or do first
). I do wish i could explain that to him, but i can’t just blurt it out, and i can’t in any way start a talk, he deviates as soon as he figures it’s personal. (besides, women have a history with nagging, yelling and accusing).
He wants kids just as much as or even more than me. He talks about that pretty often, with him starting the conversation. He’s more preocupied of having a big house than me. I’m fine with the little place we have now.
He often stated that he’s just not that interested in sex (in general and not with me in particular). But again, since I’m not a mind reader, him looking after other females and at porn sends a quite different message, makes me feel insecure and unsafe (because I’m human after all). That could mean he wants another woman, or it could mean that he’s just being a guy, but for some reason feels uncomfortable about actual sex.
3. He doesn’t wanna go near any private topic whatsoever. Only thing he discusses are bills, what we need to buy, what we need to do to cut down on expenses, what he’d like to buy and what he finds fascinating (including cars, gadgets etc). Don’t get me wrong, I love those talks, I married him because we can hold those conversations better than two men could talk about football or two women could talk about different shades of lipstick. We do go out, talk, laugh, enjoy eachother’s company. But when something isn’t working properly, you need to talk about that too – even though embarrasing (as in : hey, the washing machine broke down, we need to fix it. Same thing…hey, sex broke down, let’s fix it). As I’ve mentioned to him, everything we talk about, we’re extremely good at together and turns out excellent. Only things we don’t talk about are our intimate/emotional needs and sex. And obviously both are really bad.
I think it’s a normal part of life to keep attractive for your mate. Sure, there are moments in life where you can’t (think women and pregnancy). I expect the affection my mate has for me to maintain some sort of sex life throughout the pregnancy, but i don’t find it normal to completely let yourself go after having a kid. That’s not only lack of respect for your mate, it’s also lack of respect for your own self. Besides, looks are part of it. If you were affectionate and funny at the start of the relationship and 5 years later you are bitter all the time it has the same effect as gaining weight, doesn’t it?
I understand the point your trying to make, that a man is attracted to a woman and satisfied once he chooses her, but doesn’t expect her to gain a ton of weight 5 years into the marriage or become bitter and yell every day about how much she does around the house. And women whether they admit it or not, have exactly the same problems. They are just bothered by different things their husbands stop doing. It’s a vicious cycle really. Woman lets herself go, man feels she doesn’t love him (because she doesn’t wanna look good for him), stops doing some stuff for her, woman notices that, gets even more frustrated, starts being angry and so on.
I know I should ‘lead by example’ and become vulnerable and completely open without asking anything in return. I just don’t know how to do it. As I’ve said before, whenever i go into something more personal, he completely changes the topic, sometimes even gets angry.
I am well aware I might have done some things to affect him, I just wish I knew what they were. This feels like two kids that got upset on eachother and each went to his/her corner and sits there pouting, without anyone saying anything. I believe maturity, on both sides, women and men, includes self-control + comunication. That meaning, learning to and having the courage to say what’s on your mind, but phrasing it in such a way that your SO can understand exactly what you mean and gets as little hurt feelings as possible. In the end, in a marriage, we’re there to support eachother and make life better for eachother, not to judge and accuse. Too bad most people don’t stop to consider that when they are angry.
What you said does help. I really thank you for that. I’ve already chosen to stay together with him at the cost of what I want. But that doesn’t keep me from trying to see if there’s anything to do that can make things better for the both of us.
What i also don’t understand is why lately he’s become exagerately manly in action, when he was never like that. While at the same time, he seems to need a second opinion on most decisions he makes, and seems generally less confident in his actions or decisions.
I’m not sure if my ‘over-thinking’ the situation is good or bad. It could be anything. I’m frustrated about not knowing him more than anything else. It feels odd for the person who should be closest to you (we don’t choose any of our family except for our spouse…so we should take responsability for our choice).
‘Now, to dispel a feminist ‘myth’. Women want sex just as much as men. That, I’m afraid, just isn’t quite true. I’m not going to say SOME women don’t want it as much, but the truth is, even if a woman wants it MORE often, there’s no way she wants it as much. It does not consume her, like it can consume a man’s thoughts.’
This is the only thing i don;t agree with. Are men afraid of some things? Yes. Do they ever admit it? Sometimes not even to themselves. Check out how females of various species behave when in heat. Not only do they NEED to reproduce, they will reproduce with an alpha male and then perhaps all other males in sight.
They will encourage the males to mate with them. There are lots of myths involving sexuality.
1.Like males are polygamous, females aren’t. Well, no offence but most species of females mate with at least 4-5-6 males to produce offspring of ‘high quality’.
2.The male is made for enjoying sex and the female is not (explain all those nerves in the clitoris then…how’d they just happen to land there for pleasure?)
3.Males can’t be satisfied by only one woman whereas females can….(with all the women yelling about their men not lasting long enough, considering the fact that women can have sex easily with 5-6 partners a day). Due maily to the fact that men were bigger therefore dominant as a sex for many years. Women were submissive to them. A man having more women meant he had more power..alpha male etc. Women can always have as many males as they want, separately or at the same time. Males found it harder to find more females.
Bottom line is, a woman will feel like more of a woman if she looks pretty, teases all men, and doesn’t get caught by any of them. It boosts her confidence.
A man will feel more confident if he’s accepted by as many women as possible (because they are hard to get). It boosts his confidence.
While sex is an urge and feels awesome for a woman, it’s in conflict with what i just said above, and all the stuff her mom told her about not putting out for anyone cause she looses her worth.
That creates a conflict. Just like you have ’should i pee on the street like i feel the urge to, and be laughed at by people’? or should I hold on, repress the urge and wait till home?
I’m sorry if my comparisson sounds disgusting or offensive to anyone. My point is it all starts from how you think and what you know you can or can’t get. Males living surrounded by 5-6 sisters and living with women all their lives will tend to be more emotional and not be such players.
This is of course just my opinion, as i said there are many versions. Only thing that bothers me with men oggling me on the street is that it’s like telling me ‘hey babe, i’m screwing you in my mind now’.
I’m sure not all men would appreciate me going around the street looking at them with a face that clearly states ‘hey dude, i’m imagining you taking out the trash and moving furniture for me now, or imagining how desperate you are and how i can make you do anything i’d like for you to get sex’. I can understand you doing that, but more subtly please. It’s completely normal for a man to be attracted to a woman. It’s not normal for me as a woman to be mind-screwed by 50 men a day
I anxiously await all opinions on this matter.
My boyfriend of 2 1/2 years would rather leave me than give up porn. Ive tried to be ok with it, but unfortunately for certain painful reasons I just cant seem to be. I can totally understand the need for it in certain relationships that lack sex. My boyfriend and I will have sex, then he cant wait for me to leave the house so he can sit there for hours, naked on the couch stroking his thing! Here is the problem. One, I am extremely sexual, as in he doesnt give it to me enough. I would do it 4 times a day everyday if he would allow. I never even get the second go round. Two, if after sex he still felt the need for more, I would give him a bj, jerk him off, whatever. I have told him this very sweetly that i would rather me get him off than other naked women. Im very attractive so I dont see the reason he is not satisfied, he has me doing things they do in porns as well. more than happy too please. Two, im the one who never reaches orgasm with him because he is overweight and cant keep going in the same position long enough for me to get there, i dont tell him because i dont want to kill his self esteem, but he seems to be ok will killing mine by watching porn after ive explained many times how incompitant that makes me feel because to me, he is chosing that over me, because he knows i want it, but wont put out. I told him I know he has to masturbate sometimes, but i would rather him watch it with me instead of alone. I try to understand this whole porn thing, but he has made this out to be Im crazy and should just accept it because he wont stop. I dont think he has any clue, or cares, that is killing me on so many levels because Im the one who should feel in lack of, not him. I do too much for him. So does this mean porn is more important than real love and relationships, is it worth giving up a woman that loves and desires you constantly, and willing to do anything for? Whats wrong with me? or whats wrong with him?
Serah,
I do have some responses for you. But you wrote a lot and multiple points you wrote about requires some discussion, so putting it all in one response would create quite a ridiculously long post (yes, even longer than what’s already been done)
And, I will not go in order of your post…random order as I think of your comments:
My comment about women not wanting sex as much as men, you bring up a good point: women are conflicted because of what they are taught. I agree, that can definitely be a part of the reason women refrain. However, it still doesn’t mean women think or want sex as much as men. Again, I’m saying this as a generalization. I know SOME women may want it as much, as deeply and as often. But that’s not a majority.
You actually helped prove it a bit in what you said last when you gave your example of men mind screwing you all day long when they see you, and here’s why I say that:
You indicated that men wouldn’t want women to be thinking ‘I envision you taking out the trash…etc’. That right there means that women’s FIRST reaction on a guy is ‘what can he provide for me, in terms of work, accomplishment, etc…that triggers before the sexual thoughts.
Men do NOT think that. They don’t care. Their first and their ONLY thought is ‘I want to bend you over or put your legs behind your head’.
What’s also true is that men would WANT women to think ‘man, I’d like to ride you home tonight’ when you look at us. There is not a man alive who would be offended, even slightly, by that thought. 90% of men would act on that if they knew you were thinking that, if you’re attractive. Obviously those who aren’t, it might be a different story.
However, you yourself (self proclaimed to have a STRONG sexual desire) don’t want men to do that to you. It’s because you’re not as hard-wired to think like that, no matter how much you enjoy it, no matter how much you think about it, it’s still simply not the same. You would not act on it even if you had the opportunity and it was an attractive man that you saw doing it to you (someone like PhilC, LOL). Sometimes, maybe you would, but you’d need a stronger sense of safety, security before you proceed. Men wouldn’t need that. Men’s desires for sex overrides that concern. Maybe it’s because men are more confident in their ability to protect themselves, that’s possible, but the point is, in a man’s mind, the hierarchy of needs works like this:
1)Food (often times is replaced by 1a)
1a) Sex (many times #1 will not be allowed to take hold if #1a isn’t taken care of)
2) everything else
I’m simply stating that as much as you might like sex, and women have come a long way in allowing themselves to enjoy sex and be sexual, it’s still not the same way men think of it. It can consume men’s minds to the point of. That’s why I say women don’t like sex as much as men. It’s a generalization, and as a general rule (there are always exceptions both ways) it is true.
PhilC
Your characterization of male sexuality is pretty accurate for the most part. For people who doubt it, they only have to look at the difference between male to male and female to female relationships in the gay community. Gay male relationships are more sex orientated, whereas gay female relationships place a stronger emphasis on emotional sustenance. That’s not to say there is not sometimes overlap, but generally speaking, there is a stronger purely sexual aspect to gay male relationships. You don’t often hear about women getting caught cottaging, à la George Michael.
The other thing about male gay relationships is there is a general absence of machismo. No one is trying to prove how much of a man they are, so there can be no accusations of patriarchal conditioning. On the contrary, now that it is more acceptable to be openly gay in most Western democracies, those men who choose to come out, do not try to hide their effeminate side if they have one and positively celebrate women, yet when it comes to their sex lives, their appetites and inclinations towards other men resemble those of heterosexual men toward women, not heterosexual or homosexual women toward men and women respectively.
On a side note, are you familiar with the Coolidge Effect? This explains why men can become so bored having sex with the same person. The desire for variety is natural, which is why porn remains popular for men, even if they are in relationships. The appetite is there and porn is one of the means by which men can quench it. There may be other sexual and non-sexual alternatives to help painlessly abate or satisfy these desires in a monogamous relationship, but they are not at all obvious to those who have them. Simply trying to suppress them is not going to do the trick. You’ll either be depressed or the dam will bust at some point. Here are a couple of links explaining the Coolidge Effect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolidge_effect
http://www.reuniting.info/science/coolidge_effect
My comments do not speak of all men, naturally, but the overwhelming majority.
PhilC,
I was talking about looking at guys as if I want them to take the trash out from a more subjective standpoint.
As in, I personally am married. I am not exactly sure how men feel about this, but at the moment a guy visibly and obviously undresses me with his eyes, specially when that happens more times a day by different guys, naturally makes me feel bad. While outside a marriage I could see sex as being casual and ‘meaningless’, bringing little to no emotional attachment, since when I became married I find it slightly inapropriate to flirt or do more with another man. A man would probably have a similar reaction to what I said, the part with taking the trash out, because it would make him feel kind of the same (or so i think). Besides, thoughts are controllable. Sure, a nice guy will pass by, i will check him out involuntarily, just like i’ll check out everything that draws my attention, a nice car, a weird kid, a lady that’s carrying a kitten, you name it. But since I married, seeing a cute guy translates into ‘oh, he’s fine, i’d do him if i were single….but i’m not’. Based on that logic, i can completely understand why men check out women they like. It simply catches their attention.
After some talk with some female friends, it appears you really are right and women aren’t (or won’t admit) to be that interested in sex. As for my personal hard-wiring, were i single at the moment, i would probably act on and enjoy most opportunities i’d have.
Anyway, you seem like a really reasonable guy, and I can generally understand your point of view. Any way i can switch to talking to you on something more reasonable than this post? I’m really concerned about my hubby as I mentioned above and you might actually be able to help me in figuring out what’s missing for him. That’s only if you want of course.
Serah,
As I have stated before…so many things to say, recently, so little time.
I truly appreciate women who understand what I say, I’ve found up to this point they are few and far between. I don’t believe there’s any ‘derrogatory’ remarks, only truths that need to be realized and accepted by both sexes (men, too, but this is where women post mostly, right?).
I am always happy and open to giving my opinion, as you can see, and if that opinion can help in anyway, that’s even better.
However, I do not have a ‘facebook’ or anything like that to communicate. If you do, I will be happy to visit and chat with you there, or if there is some other format, let me know.
As far as your potential problems with your husband, I would ask you to make sure you sit down with him and dig. He might not like it (most people don’t like to dig, but men maybe moreso than women).
The reason I say this is because he’s doing something but won’t admit it to you. Now, I would theorize it’s because of what I’ve said in the past…he’s made to feel ashamed and guilty for his sexual thoughts. He may even be into things that are a bit ‘weird’ or ‘perverted’ even to you, and he’s been taught that those things aren’t acceptable, and he may be afraid of you rejecting him because of it.
Think about this for a moment. I am a man. I know and have seen how my generation has been raised. I’m guessing you and hubby are probably close to my age, certainly the same generation.
We have grown up in times where we’ve been taught that women are equal to men. That’s great. But how do you make someone feel good about themselves? 2 ways. One positive and one negative.
1 by positively reinforcing that person’s value or 2 by knocking others around you down. I hate to say, but there’s been a lot of both. Blaming men. Calling men perverts, pigs, dogs, cheats, liars, etc. When a man doesn’t want to get married he’s ‘afraid of committment’. When a woman doesn’t (now a days), she’s ‘independent, career-oriented and strong’. WHAT????
What’s wrong with both being ‘independent, career-oriented and strong’?
Sorry, off on a soapbox. But the point is, you may not realize it, but that’s an example of the ‘bringing down’ of men I’m talking about, and those things filter into everyday life, and affect how families have raised their children.
Boys have been taught to be respectful of girls, but to never demand and expect anything of girls. Girls have been taught to demand and expect of boys, but to never respect and give back to boys.
So, basically, we raise girls to be princesses, but we don’t raise boys to be princes (and I don’t mean prince charming that caters to girls), and that’s wrong.
When I raise a child, it’s going to be for what’s best for my child, whether it be girl or boy. If it’s a boy, then yeah, I’m raising him to be respectful, but to also acknowledge, embrace and enjoy his sexuality, so long as he doesn’t hurt anyone with it.
But, that’s not what’s been happening, and your husband may be feeling the guilt and shame associated with all of that,(based on how he was raised) and is hiding it from you. He may even be ashamed to admit that he just quite simply wants sex to be about him. He’s wanting to please you so much according to you, but that might equate to him as being a ‘chore’. He might be too worried about pleasing you that he’s not really enjoying it himself.
But until you are able to talk to him, it’s all theory.
Now, how to dig? I wish I could give you a better answer than ‘you’re on your own’. I’m sure even psychologists would say it’s very tough to get someone to open up, because people are so different. There’s similarities, but there are so many different experiences, that you might be fighting an uphill or unwinnable battle.
I’ve suggested, and still stand by breaking down his barriers by opening up yourself first. I don’t mean ‘hey I like sex too’ or anything like that.
I mean opening up to him about something that even might terrify you about yourself or about how you think, or whatever. Maybe an odd, weird or maybe even ’sick fantasy’ that you think would gain societal frown-uponance. (I know that’s not a word, but it sounds like it should be and honestly, I’ve written so much already, my mind is making up words now)
Anyway, if you are able to show him that you have somethings that you might be ashamed of and are willing to share with him, then he may be willing to do the same with you.
But I wouldn’t necessarily expect in the same exact conversation for him to respond to you. And I wouldn’t ask him directly at that time. It should just be in conversation. I think what it will do is plant the seed. The seed of ‘hey, I’m not so bad or perverted after all.’ A seed that will lift some of that guard he has up right now.
If you have nothing like that to share with him, I honestly don’t know what else to suggest, other than start working on altimatums. I hate them, but they are at times a necessary evil.
Or, learn to not need to know all of this and accept it as it is.
I wouldn’t judge you either way based on your decision, but sometimes life really is as simple as ‘this is what I want in life…and my guy/gal isn’t providing it for me. I need to decide if what I want is more important to me than the other things that person provides for me’.
If it is, you move on, after giving it every effort.
If it’s not, you have to just maybe change or adapt your own thinking to accomodate so it doesn’t bother you.
I know it’s very hard to break down EXACTLY what I mean in this post, and if you’re a bit confused, please ask, or we can try to find some other format to communicate. I would never suggest using what I say if you don’t understand it completely because it might make things worse.
I understand what you mean. And I’ve taken it into consideration.
It does seem to be a chore for him. And the ‘I’m too tired to want to have sex’, I know it means he’s too tired for something he doesn’t really enjoy. There are many details to this situation that may clear up things a bit. But just for the record, he’s never seemed to be the ‘pleasing the woman’ type. That’s why I liked and married him.
I’ve always found that respectful and pleasing attitude towards women (that most of the times is or seems fake) to be more offensive than pleasant so I married a guy who actually wouldn’t be bothered to bring flowers or open doors unless he really wanted to or felt like it. We’ve agreed since day one, that there’d be no lieing or unnecesary gestures, that we’d both be ourselves.
There was never a ‘does this dress make me look fat?’ and his saying ‘no dear, you look great situation’. It was more along the lines of ‘yes, it kind of does…try the blue one’ and I rarely close to never got offended. Just to explain better what kind of relationship I’m talking about. No free compliments, no showering of gifts upon me because we both agree we’re rather equal and it’s unnecesary. We’ve almost always shared money, and when we didn’t, none of us payed for the other one, we just split everything in half. This was agreed upon and none of us had any objections at any given time.
Moreover, (this might be subjective) but I’ve had the tendency to be more of the pleaser in this relationship. He’s the one with ‘I want’ and I’m the one with ‘Ok, let’s see how we can get it for you’
Guess there’s also the ‘maternal’ instinct that goes into play and I actually feel the need on occassion to pamper him.
You’re right about a lot of blame being thrown at men. I also take the liberty to say that in my opinion you’re even more in need of affection and a comitted relationship than we are, even if you don’t show it (of course I can be wrong, this is just an assumption), but you usually want to be sure if you really want something so serious as a marriage, whereas most women just jump into it, caring mostly about the ring and social status, rather than the person they are marrying.
I can’t hurry to blame men who don’t want to get married because I find it way more honest and fair for a man who isn’t sure he wants to stick to only one woman, or that he wants so much intimacy with a woman, to stay single till he decides what he really wants. Rather than getting tied up and being unhappy.
When I said different way to communicate, I was refering to e-mail since I’m kinda sick of trolling on this post with really long replies. My e-mail is Sapphirez@gmail.com. Feel free to answer there if you wish. And thank you again for the reply.
Regarding the ending of your post, I’ve already decided sex is less important to me than his company. I respect him having some stuff only to himself and I know I shouldn’t intrude on his business.
But I’ve left this as it was for a year, and leaving aside sex, he’s also grown colder from other points of view too. The more I left it alone the less he’d talk about other things with me, the more upset he seemed to be…you get my point. (either that or my frustration was obvious and that pushed him away). I also love him enough to want to make him happy, and to be completely honest, I’m a little reluctant to the idea that he might find what he wants in another woman, when I’m very much prepared to offer whatever he wants as long as I figure out what it is.
Socrates,
Interesting point, one I haven’t really thought of, but I think it does show a truer sense of men vs. women. Within homosexuality, specifically men more than women, it’s certainly not going to be a ‘conditioned’ response, because nobody is ‘taught’ to be gay, because of all the social stigmas associated with it (even though nowadays it’s certainly MORE accepted, it’s not fully accepted) Therefore, the natural interaction between the gay partners is more pure in terms of ‘this is truly how we are’. I feel it’s the same with men and women, but there are so many feminists trying NOT to accept it as such, that it blurs reality, and makes people question whether it’s nature, or conditioning.
Anyway, was not familiar with the ‘Coolidge effect’, and it was interesting. I especially enjoyed the story on why it’s called the ‘Coolidge effect’. Hilarious.
Serah,
I will respond to your email address, but give me a little time.
Serah
You seem like a very accepting and open person, which I think puts you at an advantage in terms of making your relationships work. You also seem to be keeping it real, which is more than can be said for many out there living in a fantasy world. In any case, I thought you might be interested in the work of Esther Perel. She wrote a book called ‘Mating in Captivity’, which has since been translated into 20 languages and deals with the problems you seem to be experiencing. I think you will find it very helpful. She has a pretty strong grasp of why the erotic aspects of a relationship can create as chasm between the sexes and provides fresh ideas for dealing with this. Here are 3 links. The 1st is a roundtable discussion she took part in, 2nd is her website and 3rd is an Amazon link, not necessarily to buy the book, but to read the comments to get a flavour.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zwr_BSWKLLo&feature=channel_page
http://www.estherperel.com/
http://www.amazon.com/Mating-Captivity-Reconciling-Erotic-Domestic/dp/0060753633
@ PhilC
Ok, thank you, I will await your response.
@Socrates
Thank you for the reading material, I will look into it. I know that from a biological standpoint a monogamous relationship is a drag. Maybe moreso for males than females (but not by a huge extent i think). The Coolidge Effect makes perfect sense. And it was actually necessary throughout time.
I see it more as a impulse/reaction than a need though. Along the lines of…if i hit myself, i will feel pain. If i see a new female, i will feel arroused and in the case of females, if i see a better male i will feel arroused.
On a side note, I guess that’s why sexy lingere has such an impact, it gives the male brain exactly the same signals, of something different = new female.
Same goes with perfume, different hairstyles, and explains why most females feel the need to change their appearance a lot. So, thankfully the human brain probably can be tricked over and over with a little bit of skill and effort.
@Socrates
Thank you very much for recommending that book. It did make me see things from a different perspective and hopefully it will help a lot in the near future too.
Porn is different for each person. I don’t enjoy watching men have sex. I enjoy simple pictures of nude women in varying poses. As to why I think men watch porn: it was previously mentioned that porn and masturbation is a relief valve, but from what? Men are biologically programmed to seek as much sex as possible. Women are programmed for a longer committment to reproduction. Once a modern male has committed to a woman, he finds he still wants other women. Some men cheat outright, others, myself included, consider their committment important. I use porn to “cheat”, or in other words to ensure that I don’t seek other women. I don’t want to get into too much detail because it is personal. I enjoy my fantasy life, and I enjoy being with the woman I have committed myself to for 20 years. I don’t expect her to physically change to meet my fantasy expectations.
Its been very interesting reading so many different opinions on porn.I am a 43 year old attractive fit sexual woman that seems to want a more sexual relationship than my 39 year old partner. My partner has looked at magazines and watched porn most of his life and never been in a very long committed relationship. I on the other hand have been married and only been in longterm relationships. Is this longterm use of porn and lack of intimacy the cause of very little sex between us is my question….He says he is very attracted to me sexyually…so is it just easier to be selfish and masterbate to porn…I get turned down too much, is having sex that much of an effort, or what, I am not hard to please and like quickies and dont ask to be romanced to have sex so what could be the issue…I am not a dirty porn girl is that the problem….
But Tony you are seeking out other women and cheating. Cheating is cheating, call me old fashioned if you want but if you are desireing another sexually it is cheating . my partner doesnt see it as cheating but I asked him if he would be ok if I masterbated to porn and he said no he wouldnt want to be with me if I did. Ok then this double standard works well for men doesnt it.If men want to look at porn and masterbate then thats fine but dont make an issue of it if your women does it.I prefer to save it for my partner but do understand it is neccesary to look after yourself sometimes , just dont make too much of a habit of it and take away from the sexual needs of a relationship
Sure there are differences between the sexes. Yes, in general men are more visual when it comes to sex, but this is no excuse to reduce sex to only what a man can see. There needs to be chemistry, but there are so many ways for this to be developed other than using one of our senses. Sex is a profound form of communication between two partners. Men who use porn are just short changing themselves. They lose their ability to communicate with women. There is no substitute for a real relationship and the deep fulfilling sex from truly pleasing your partner and coming together physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Over time porn erodes a man’s ability to see a woman as nothing more than an object and crave sex that is nothing more than a physical release. Porn creates a desire in a man to only want sex on his terms. No woman should ever settle for a man who only wants to masturbate himself with her body. My wife and I have been married for 15 years. She had breast cancer and had her breasts removed 5 years ago. Sex was great when she was young and beautiful by anyone’s standards. Today it is even better… I can’t imagine being more attracted to a woman that I am to her. The attraction I once experienced with my eyes I now experience with every part of me down to soul. A guy will never understand this until he puts down the porn and is willing to be a man.
I stumbled on this discussion and think I have something to add here, though I could be wrong.
First of all, just for reference, I’m a 38-year old male with an advanced degree, secure high-paying job, a beautiful wife and the most perfect 4-year old princess daughter you could possibly imagine…so I have a lot to be thankful for that brings happiness to my life. That all being said, the hardest parts of our 12-year marriage revolve around the different views my wife and I hold about what a healthy sex life is. It’s clear to me that I have a much higher sex drive than my wife does, which I wish wasn’t the case, but it just is.
A couple of statements that I feel compelled to make are as follow:
I think it’s true that men and women have, on average, different proclivities regarding sex. I believe men are more end objective oriented and women are more process oriented, which would explain why men tend to be more visually stimulated (which is a more basic reaction to the anticipated end goal) and women tend to be more emotionally stimulated (which is a more complex reaction toward the process or experience of sex).
I think my above statement is VASTLY influenced by an individual’s personal life experiences and, thus, we are all, as humans, scattered about the sex continuum more or less evenly with men as a group having a slightly more dense scattering toward the objective side of the line and women as a group having a slightly more dense scattering toward the process side of the line…to account for our base tendencies.
I know I’ve read something about men being more genetically disposed toward polygamy and women being more disposed toward monogamy as a function of evolution, if you believe in evolution. The theory is that early man was naturally driven to mate with as many high quality females as possible so as to increase the likelihood of his genetic code surviving to the next generation. Early woman, on the other hand, would have had a strong tendency to attach to a single male with favorable attributes (strong, good hunter, capable defender, etc.) who was able to provide for her needs and the needs of her offspring so to increase the likelihood that her children would survive to adulthood. I personally believe in God, and therefore don’t naturally attach to this concept…but the theory seems logical. Otherwise, I don’t know how you explain why so many men have a hard time staying focussed on a single woman, other than that men are generally weaker in their convitions than women, which is a theory I also don’t like.
I have at times in my life used pornography as a visual stimulant, especially when not in a committed relationship, purely for the purpose of satisfying my basic physical sexual desires. It was purely a physiological thing with no emotional attachments to the experiences. My wife has a very negative opinion of pornography and, therefore, out of respect for her wishes, I choose not look at porn, though I have absolutely no moral or philisophical opposition to adults choosing what I right for themselves in their own lives and relationships…therefore, smoke ‘em if you got ‘em, right?
I heard it said once that in order for a person to have a successful marriage or committed relationship, they first need to get divorced…from themselves. This is to say that people need to separate themsleves from their own selfish needs and desires and focus on their spouses or significant others. Only in living for the happiness of another can we be truly satisfied in ourselves and our relationships.
I guess my point is that I can buy the idea that we, as unique genders, have built in tendencies, but to have a healthy and truly happy marriage or relationship we need to divorce ourselves from our basic needs, have a bit of self control and focus on making each other happy. I think that if each person in a relationship does that, each person’s needs and expectations get met and then we become satisfied. Perhaps that scenario includes the use of pornography as a recreational drug (so to speak) or perhaps one party makes the conscious choice to set aside their own needs for those of another…
You see, this article bases the assumption that all men are sex craving, beer drinking, pornography watching cheaters; and although many might not consider that, a lot of men would.
For example, I never think of having sex with a woman randomly, nor do I need pornography to survive my daily choires and I’m a straight male.
I take interest in women, like women do men; it’s nothing more than the encouragement and upbringing of other men who ARE like that, that actually makes everyone like that.
It’s in the clear instance that the female who wrote this article has found a man maybe knows the wrong people; I have two sisters and all they talk about daily is sex.
the motto of the story is, whatever happens is meant to happen; it’s biology and the opposite gender always seem to have something against it. You can’t change the body.
Asking a male to stop taking interest in other females appearances is like asking a woman to remove her breasts; it’s impossible, men are attracted to ‘women’ in most cases, and like anybody… the first impression is appearance.
ce, i’m struggling to understand the relevance of you having a higher degree. afterall, academia supports most average levels of intellect.
james, an interesting contribution.
philc, you fail to recognise that women largely accept the biological impulses of men, hence the quandary they find themselves in – the struggle to reconcile that with the whole person, the relationship, and the whole around them. that’s because they view men as being more than the sum of their various wanking sessions and prefer to give them more credit. but in your pursuit of wrapping the debate up, you do men the greatest disservice failing to do the same.
here’s an interesting article, written by a bloke, with blokes contributing, that penetrates (if you’ll excuse the pun) some harsher realities, and attempts to go beyond the cardboard dimensional strict biological basis of the argument. we’re humans, not animals.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/nov/08/gender.weekend7
hestia
Only, we are animals. We are bipedal primates. We are not solely motivated by our rational capacities, but are influenced greatly by our biological dispositions. To quote Camille Paglia:
“If middle class feminists think they conduct their love lives perfectly rationally, without any instinctual influences from biology, they are imbeciles”.
The word “pornography” comes from the Greek word “porneia” and “graphos.” The “porneia” were those women who were considered to be of no intrinsic value except as receptacles for men. Anyone could do anything to them, including killing them, with impunity. If people are speaking out of respect for women and children when they describe consuming graphic (as in writings, films, the Internet) sex acts, then that is not pornography.
If it is true that men think nearly constantly about sex, then why are they running this world? Wars are clearly violent sexual acts committed against those who are deemed to be of no intrinsic value.